The flatwater BF is dead.

[NVJAY775]

Well said. I'm all over squandering lol!

 

[FlightPlanDan]

Well said. I'm all over squandering lol!

Yup!
I thought I be ported by now.....life got in the way!
That's the great thing about surf. You can have fun....(isn't that the idea?) and do it later.

 

[227]

Sure they aren’t new and they don’t really turn heads anymore but I think both surf and flat water back flips are straight up cool- I don’t care how you joined the club, how much money you dropped or how easy/hard it was for you to learn, IMO they’re still cool

 

[Melmack]

Wow! I was on the dead FWBF bandwagon till I read this:

Hell, .... I'm still trying (now and then, when the waves are perfect) to ride out of a surf BF. Somehow, a FWBF seems a bit out of grasp at this point. (for me).
But I love to see 'em.
And no matter how you feel about "buying a trick" or working hard to achieve a trick, all must admit that things HAVE actually come a long way since the Kawi JS days.
Such a small market would normally have died years ago, except for the passion of those who have kept it alive in the past and those who keep it alive now.
All sports/hobbies advance because of both....riders AND equipment. To only look to riders to innovate would only lead to innovation in equipment. Can't have one without the other. i.e., "superflip bars".....a rider, (don't know who), said, "hey man, if I had some leverage to get my arse back in the tray......"
So, as I see it, if you think a trick is not a good trick because the equipment was too good, you're standing in the way of innovation and the advancement of the sport.
I'll admit, I only ride flat water from the ramp to the ocean and back. So, I can easily get by without super slammin' equipment.
But, if not for goodness sake, then for the sake of stand-up jet skiing in general, don't choke off innovation by being a "trick-snob"




BTW: It is usually the guys with the killer ski's that try-out new products and let the rest of us know if they would be worth squandering a paycheck on them, or not.

This should be read, read again, then taken to heart by all of us. We are at a crossroads in our sport. Will it live for our kids and theirs to enjoy or will we be the last to see it. This man's thought should be the last word on these heated discussions. We should all be very careful with our words to one another and come together at this time. So very well put Dan. So very well put.

 

[NVJAY775]

My middle kid (20yrs) can't wait to flip. Pretty sure he wants it as bad as his dad. How can it NOT be fun? I know we'll both have big silly grins when we nose one in. 227 throws a tidy flip, that I am sure didn't come easy.

 

[tom21]

I am very glad that motors are getting more powerful and hulls and parts are always being created and improved. NO ONE CAN DENY THIS IS A GOOD THING.

I think the point is that if a golf club and ball were invented that automatically hit the ball into the hole every swing, how many would play? yes that is an over exageration. but now if I can buy a ski that with a little experience my wife can backflip, what is special about the trick when anyone can do it? Yes I understand it takes some skill and muscle to even hold onto the damn thing but I feel its like steroids. who do you admire more, the guy who did it with blood,sweat and tears or chemicals.

obviously a better piece of equipment will allow a better performance. Mark Gomez is my favorite example. He actually can ride a ski. He has practiced and made the effort to be a great rider. And then he got a sj lol. Im not sure if he would be the rider he is today if he were to have just jumped right onto a carbon stroked and bored ski. maybe he will speak to that?

Maybe I am just too old to get it, but I like the challenge.

I dont think its being a hater, I think its just saying "hey, now you dont have to spend all the time practicing and improving and working at it, you can just buy it" Okay-fine. thats all well and good. we will have to invent a new even more difficult trick for a light weight big motor ski. GREAT! (not said with sarcasm)

that trick is done. now we will all have to start working on front flips.

or if you truly are a hater work on something that negates the hull and motor combo and relies solely on the rider. Like a backflip done by just the rider and not the ski and lands on the ski. havent seen that yet.

 

[JetManiac]

I am very glad that motors are getting more powerful and hulls and parts are always being created and improved. NO ONE CAN DENY THIS IS A GOOD THING.

I think the point is that if a golf club and ball were invented that automatically hit the ball into the hole every swing, how many would play? yes that is an over exageration. but now if I can buy a ski that with a little experience my wife can backflip, what is special about the trick when anyone can do it? Yes I understand it takes some skill and muscle to even hold onto the damn thing but I feel its like steroids. who do you admire more, the guy who did it with blood,sweat and tears or chemicals.

obviously a better piece of equipment will allow a better performance. Mark Gomez is my favorite example. He actually can ride a ski. He has practiced and made the effort to be a great rider. And then he got a sj lol. Im not sure if he would be the rider he is today if he were to have just jumped right onto a carbon stroked and bored ski. maybe he will speak to that?

Maybe I am just too old to get it, but I like the challenge.

I dont think its being a hater, I think its just saying "hey, now you dont have to spend all the time practicing and improving and working at it, you can just buy it" Okay-fine. thats all well and good. we will have to invent a new even more difficult trick for a light weight big motor ski. GREAT! (not said with sarcasm)

that trick is done. now we will all have to start working on front flips.

or if you truly are a hater work on something that negates the hull and motor combo and relies solely on the rider. Like a backflip done by just the rider and not the ski and lands on the ski. havent seen that yet.

I agree with much of what you say that it is important to learn the fundamentals and practice alot on regular skis, etc. I have been able to learn flatwater backys after years of flopping around on less than adequate equipment and I feel that I am a better rider for it.

However, flatwater backys are not easy even on Josh's 1100 superfreak. I got to ride it recently and it is scary! I am an experienced flipper in surf and on boat wakes and sometimes on setup wakes. Yes, I landed a few flips fairly quickly, but I also lost control after a flip, hit the gas too much and lost my hands and 1 foot and the ski started a second flip without me and then landed on my forearms, ouch!!

Lucas jumps on it and (seemingly) effortlessly lands enormous tricks, etc. My point is there is tremendous rider skill involved flatwater backys. Josh's ski is one of the best around, but out of all our experienced local riders only lucas is able to exploit the ski to much of its potential at this time. All of these riders can throw huge surf backflips, but are challenged by this ski.

I think Josh only posted his brother trying to flip it to show the insane power, not to say that it is easy to master.

 

[JetManiac]

Hell, .... I'm still trying (now and then, when the waves are perfect) to ride out of a surf BF. Somehow, a FWBF seems a bit out of grasp at this point. (for me).
But I love to see 'em.
And no matter how you feel about "buying a trick" or working hard to achieve a trick, all must admit that things HAVE actually come a long way since the Kawi JS days.
Such a small market would normally have died years ago, except for the passion of those who have kept it alive in the past and those who keep it alive now.
All sports/hobbies advance because of both....riders AND equipment. To only look to riders to innovate would only lead to innovation in equipment. Can't have one without the other. i.e., "superflip bars".....a rider, (don't know who), said, "hey man, if I had some leverage to get my arse back in the tray......"
So, as I see it, if you think a trick is not a good trick because the equipment was too good, you're standing in the way of innovation and the advancement of the sport.
I'll admit, I only ride flat water from the ramp to the ocean and back. So, I can easily get by without super slammin' equipment.
But, if not for goodness sake, then for the sake of stand-up jet skiing in general, don't choke off innovation by being a "trick-snob"


BTW: It is usually the guys with the killer ski's that try-out new products and let the rest of us know if they would be worth squandering a paycheck on them, or not.

Well said Dan!

I would like to add several other thoughts:

The '(evil) Rich guys' buy expensive hulls, parts, etc. and them later sell them at a loss to other 'less rich guys' thereby helping those guys afford to buy more expensive gear for alot less money. Maybe a local rider example would help to illustrate this parts turnover. Hope you don't mind Brett.

For example, Superwetbrett (aka evil rich flatwater rider) buys an FX-1 and starts a build. He plans a basic pump tunnel swap and to put his ported 718 JetManiac motor from his RN in it. He put alot of money and time into this build.

Brett's FX-1 build thread: http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/74328-raped-fx-1-backflip-project-ski-(now-getting-xs1000)

Before the hull was even finished he found a deal on a used 1000cc and buys it, so now he doesn't need his 'almost new' ported JetManiac motor so he sells it:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/86921-jetmaniac-blue-freestyle-710cc
The last listed price was 1700. for a motor that costs 1650. short block + ADA head + carbs/intake + MSD + complete electrics

The buyer got an incredible deal that he might not otherwise have been able to afford.

Brett finally finished his build and rode it several times, but not many. He decides to sell his whole setup.

So he sells the 1000cc motor, RN hull, and FX-1000 hull to other Xers.

Swapmeet bought the hull and is building it again:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/88873-Swapmeet-s-Sloppy-Seconds

Now he is building a carbon superfreak by kit(to save money and he like building them) here:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/90082-Superwetbrett-s-not-so-wet-yet-build

Someone is going to love this ski and motor after he moves on the next project....

I say we need more 'rich guys' in our sport not less. My point is that they buy lots of stuff and the rest of us benefit. Finally, most of the 'rich guys' I know in this sport that I know aren't really that rich and must make alot of sacrifices to afford their skis and parts.

 

[mademan9]

Well said Dan!

I would like to add several other thoughts:

The '(evil) Rich guys' buy expensive hulls, parts, etc. and them later sell them at a loss to other 'less rich guys' thereby helping those guys afford to buy more expensive gear for alot less money. Maybe a local rider example would help to illustrate this parts turnover. Hope you don't mind Brett.

For example, Superwetbrett (aka evil rich flatwater rider) buys an FX-1 and starts a build. He plans a basic pump tunnel swap and to put his ported 718 JetManiac motor from his RN in it. He put alot of money and time into this build.

Brett's FX-1 build thread: http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/74328-raped-fx-1-backflip-project-ski-(now-getting-xs1000)

Before the hull was even finished he found a deal on a used 1000cc and buys it, so now he doesn't need his 'almost new' ported JetManiac motor so he sells it:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/86921-jetmaniac-blue-freestyle-710cc
The last listed price was 1700. for a motor that costs 1650. short block + ADA head + carbs/intake + MSD + complete electrics

The buyer got an incredible deal that he might not otherwise have been able to afford.

Brett finally finished his build and rode it several times, but not many. He decides to sell his whole setup.

So he sells the 1000cc motor, RN hull, and FX-1000 hull to other Xers.

Swapmeet bought the hull and is building it again:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/88873-Swapmeet-s-Sloppy-Seconds

Now he is building a carbon superfreak by kit(to save money and he like building them) here:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/90082-Superwetbrett-s-not-so-wet-yet-build

Someone is going to love this ski and motor after he moves on the next project....

I say we need more 'rich guys' in our sport not less. My point is that they buy lots of stuff and the rest of us benefit. Finally, most of the 'rich guys' I know in this sport that I know aren't really that rich and must make alot of sacrifices to afford their skis and parts.

Great point! I am one of those not so rich guys. I started out with a beater of a square nose, now Im riding a custom, shorten round with a amazing 718 jetmaniac motor. I've already talked to people about selling my rd and getting a superfreak. Now mine you, I will have to sell everything I got to get one. Maybe even send in my 718 for a 781. But the point of all my buying and trading so to do the what I think is the best trick out there....... FLAT WATER BACKFLIP!!!

 

[NVJAY775]

Excellent points fellas.

 

[WILKEY]

you skeezers got way to much time on your hands! ill be buying a big motor and lightweight hull here real soon. After riding joshes ski i was hooked! ill spend that 20-25k for the workout ya get with it. Who the f cares if wavedemon thinks fwbf's are gay.

 

[Matt_E]

Finally, a voice of reason. :bigok:

 

[superwetbrett]

Well said Dan!

I would like to add several other thoughts:

The '(evil) Rich guys' buy expensive hulls, parts, etc. and them later sell them at a loss to other 'less rich guys' thereby helping those guys afford to buy more expensive gear for alot less money. Maybe a local rider example would help to illustrate this parts turnover. Hope you don't mind Brett.

For example, Superwetbrett (aka evil rich flatwater rider) buys an FX-1 and starts a build. He plans a basic pump tunnel swap and to put his ported 718 JetManiac motor from his RN in it. He put alot of money and time into this build.

Brett's FX-1 build thread: http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/74328-raped-fx-1-backflip-project-ski-(now-getting-xs1000)

Before the hull was even finished he found a deal on a used 1000cc and buys it, so now he doesn't need his 'almost new' ported JetManiac motor so he sells it:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/86921-jetmaniac-blue-freestyle-710cc
The last listed price was 1700. for a motor that costs 1650. short block + ADA head + carbs/intake + MSD + complete electrics

The buyer got an incredible deal that he might not otherwise have been able to afford.

Brett finally finished his build and rode it several times, but not many. He decides to sell his whole setup.

So he sells the 1000cc motor, RN hull, and FX-1000 hull to other Xers.

Swapmeet bought the hull and is building it again:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/88873-Swapmeet-s-Sloppy-Seconds

Now he is building a carbon superfreak by kit(to save money and he like building them) here:
http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/90082-Superwetbrett-s-not-so-wet-yet-build

Someone is going to love this ski and motor after he moves on the next project....

I say we need more 'rich guys' in our sport not less. My point is that they buy lots of stuff and the rest of us benefit. Finally, most of the 'rich guys' I know in this sport that I know aren't really that rich and must make alot of sacrifices to afford their skis and parts.

Hello, my name is Brett and i have a problem...

 

[mademan9]

Hello, my name is Brett and i have a problem...

lmao

 

[kraqus]

I can't BF so I cannot comment.....End of the Story!


p.s: But I do want a Superfreak :biggrin:


Benny

 

[kawasakit2me]

This thread is like a game of telephone, played by deaf children. (kinda reminds me of a PWCT read) It seems that the original message has been WAY lost, so I'll quote it so everyone can re-read it.

I am not sure where "evil rich guys" (BTW - smarmiest post of the decade award for that one!) or "dead sport" (eyeroll) came from, but it wasn't from the original post.

I don't want to stink up the other thread since apparently the emotions are high over there and my point wasn't to trash anyone's hard work or new motor development.

With the posting of one vid the prestige of the flatwater backflip is completely flattened to me now. It used to seem like some combo of ultimate skill with motor and hull black magic mixed in. Now that I know that someone who rarely rides can flip with no setup wake or prior flipping experience can do it, what is the point? In one vid it went from wow to NBD.

This isn't me hating on anyone or even jealousy. It's probably more disappointment than anything else. The biggest trick in freestyle now has a price tag. Hopefully that ultimate high mark will be taken over by a double flip or some surf like variation.


http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/94537-My-brothers-first-time-trying-a-backflip-dasa-1100-baby!

 

[djraider700]

I can remember a few years ago falling off my first stand up every time I tried to turn. I thought I would never get out down. Was almost ready to give up but I kept at it and pushed myself to keep getting back up every single time. Now I'm on my third stand up and practicing setup wakes, doing noise stabs, subs, learning to carve, and having a blast.

I feel so proud of myself for accomplishing what I have so far and I'm very excited to keep learning. This sport is full of great people and I love that I'm part of it. Backies, rolls, and other tricks are very much still "alive" to me since I have yet to pull them off. This sport is in me and is definitely progressing and getting better.

 

[badvinny]

25 years of stand up jetskiing here, I can pull some pretty good tricks, even in the waves, now that I am old enough to afford the equipment to do more and better tricks I am gonna do it, because I am still young enough to heal!

 

[Big Kahuna]

This thread is like a game of telephone, played by deaf children. (kinda reminds me of a PWCT read) It seems that the original message has been WAY lost, so I'll quote it so everyone can re-read it.

I am not sure where "evil rich guys" (BTW - smarmiest post of the decade award for that one!) or "dead sport" (eyeroll) came from, but it wasn't from the original post.

Please find me a thread that has 100 post that has stayed on topic?????????

 

[stanton]

flatwater aerial tricks have always been a buy in, thats why i dont ride freestyle. well that and water pigs, they stink..