Superjet Total loss

Location
Ohio
I was just saying that advanced ignition...all by itself...would not be worth the money. You are paying for that.....in the sense of the electronics being costly....but you feeling the 1.8lb flywheel more than anything I would think.

Therefore if you have a 2lb charging flywheel TL would provide minimal gains for the money.
 
Last edited:
Location
dfw
The total weight of a flywheel is not a very good indicator of its inertia unless its constant thickness. I would rather have one that has plenty of material around the hub.
 

Waternut

Customizing addict
Location
Macon, GA
The total weight of a flywheel is not a very good indicator of its inertia unless its constant thickness. I would rather have one that has plenty of material around the hub.

Exactly! Even a 2lb total loss flywheel will be a noticeable increase over a 2lb charging flywheel (if one exists that light) just because the bulk of the weight on the total loss flywheel is at the hub and the bulk of the weight on the charging flywheel is at the outer diameter due to the magnets.
 

Cannibal

Tasty Human
Location
Summit Lake, WA
The total weight of a flywheel is not a very good indicator of its inertia unless its constant thickness. I would rather have one that has plenty of material around the hub.

My MSD flywheel (sitting here in front of me) has a center hub that is 1.6" thick at the crank shaft, but that 1.6" is only about 1.75" in diameter, then it is .95" thick until about the 3" diameter mark, then tapers down to .45 at the very outside edge where the ring gear is mounted. Most of that 1lb 11oz is in the inside 3" of the flywheel. The flywheel is 6" in diameter, so I'd say that 75% of the weight is in the center 1/2 of the flywheel.
 

OCD Solutions

Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
Location
Rentz, GA
I have always thought that switching over to Total loss would be an incredible gain from a basically stock ski. However, switching from a lightweight charging flywheel to a total loss would be the equivalent of switching from a stock to a lightened flywheel, sure it makes a difference, (reducing rotating mass will always make a difference), but are you really going to notice it? And is it really worth the extra $$, time and effort. I don't factor in the extra maintenance, if it's installed correctly that shouldn't be any more than any other system including stock.

I also believe that one of the main reasons that total loss gives such gains is because the installer is finally pulling out a timing light and setting the timing correctly. The average guy is moving his stator 2-3mm from "0" and bolting a lightweight charging wheel on and getting enough improvement to be impressed. How many of us have actually checked static timing with a timing light? I'll bet the ones that do, have skis that pull much harder than most too and their buddies can't figure out why when they have basically the same setups.

Power is in the details, as is engine reliability and longevity.

IMO :biggrin:
 
Last edited:

Cannibal

Tasty Human
Location
Summit Lake, WA
I've been told that adding a TL system is like adding another B pipe. It makes a huge difference. Now, that's going from a stock ignition/flywheel too. An enhancer and a light weight flywheel will get you part way there. Kinda like going from a Pro-Tec pipe to a B pipe. Sure, it's an improvement, but not so much as going from a stock exhaust to a B pipe.

You make a good point about the setup. There is a lot to gain with proper setup. Who knows how well your ski was tuned before if you never degreed it in. Going from a poorly tuned ignition to a perfectly tuned TL makes a huge difference I'm sure.
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
I have always thought that switching over to Total loss would be an incredible gain from a basically stock ski. However, switching from a lightweight charging flywheel to a total loss would be the equivalent of switching from a stock to a lightened flywheel, sure it makes a difference, (reducing rotating mass will always make a difference), but are you really going to notice it?
Depends on how it's set up by whom.
Most people seem to forget that an MSD TL allows programming the ignition timing.
You'll be able to run high compression with big advance down low and pull it back further up - something you cannot do with a stock ignition.
In a properly set-up motor that was built for TL, the difference between a lightweight charging flywheel and total loss should be huge.
How everything works together is key.
Example: I run a standard 61X Big Bore engine, with a completely stock 62T flywheel and an Enhancer.
A friend of mine runs a similar engine (different builder), but with TBM flywheel and also better reeds, mag pump impeller and TBM cone.
Guess what? My motor hits harder, despite being "limited" by the stock weight flywheel, weaker pump setup, cheaper reed setup.
Consequently, I am not all that sure about the "flashy parts bandwagon" anymore.
I am a believer in competent builders that put together complete packages.
 
Last edited:

OCD Solutions

Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
Location
Rentz, GA
Consequently, I am not all that sure about the "flashy parts bandwagon" anymore.
I am a believer in competent builders that put together complete packages.

My point exactly, the power is in the details, not just the parts. I think alot of us are running expensive setups with alot more potential than we are able to get out of them. Someone who knows engines can get way more out of way less.
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
Why should he expect a diff when he is going from a 2.2lb flywheel to a 2.0lb flywheel. I would think it would behave exactly the same, no?

1. Programmable ignition. See post above.
2. No electro-7magnetic drag from charging the battery and running the ignition
3. Lighter flywheel.
 
The weight argument was already summed up best in a previous post - don't get hung up on the weight comparison of a TL flywheel to a charging flywheel; its not apples to apples. Charging flywheels have more rotational mass offset from the centerline of the crankshaft. A TL flyhweel of the same overall weight, but with much more mass concentrated at the crank centerline, will outperform a charging flywheel.
 

SUPERJET-113

GASKETS FOR CHAMP BRAP!
I had a MSD enhancer and a RAD and a jetinetics alum charging flywheel for around 8 years, then I went to the MSD multi channel digital TL 2 years ago and its a night and day difference in the hit and power band. Its been working perfect for 2 years now. Yes, a good set up is key.

30 degree static till 5500 RPMS baby! Thats some brap TL power you cant get no where else! :brap:
Not to mention 50,000 volts!
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
Crap now I want to try it. Highroller has a nice set up for sale!

Unless you know what you're doing and have the time to do it right, I wouldn't advise it. An improperly set-up TL will be a never-ending headache at best and a motor killer at worst.
You'll end up wanting to run it over with your truck.


:biggrin:
 
I used to use MSD on my flatwater boat and cooked 3 brains in as many months. I switched to the ATP Total Loss about 3 years ago and am still using the same box. The latest version out is nearly idiot proof as it fits in you stock electrical box using your OEM wiring harness.

I now mainly ski surf and still use the same ATP TL box. The secret IMO is to solder all joints. A pain but thats reliability.

You also get better starting, especially useful if you've had water thro the engine!!, because you get full voltage to the spark at zero revs, not like charging where the revs need to build to give the better spark

The down side is of course the battery, but you should get a weekends worth of skiing, even with the bilge running, providing you have a battery in good condition. Get in the habit of charging every night and carrying a spare.

The plus side is as stated previously, lighter flywheel and adjustable curve of your laptop, far easier to understand than the DIL switches.

There is an added advantage not mentioned. The ATP ignition has 2 different curves which can switched through a bilge pump style switch on you handlebars. This can either allow:
-a low power curve for say riding on the hood and hood tricks on your 8mm stroker which is normally too powerful, or to let a mate learn on,
-a separate low rev limit which is perfect for doing rodeos etc.
-easy set up, which is what I mainly use it for. You can have you main A curve on your normal timing curve, and then dial in a little bit more advance at a certain point on the B curve. You then have a direct comparison, make your wake, hit it on A curve, do it again on B curve and then swap back etc. You can really feel whether the difference is better or worse, without having to got back to the bank and strip the box off etc.

There is another advantage, If you chew bendix as often as me and have them break up, there is nothing to damage in the flywheel cover area.
 
Top Bottom