Hydrogen Fuelled Toyota - It's About Freakin' Time!

[Pro-pulsion]

I just saw this, Toyota is now producing a hydrogen fuel powered car. It's about freakin' time a major auto manufacturer took this bull by the horns instead of letting the backyard guy make all the effort and have the big oil companies gun him down for threatening their business. Toyota needs to start making conversion kits of this for the older Tundras! Long shot I know but it's still so nice to finally see it come to the mainstream

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) | Toyota Canada

Learn about Toyota’s Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology and get to know Mirai - Toyota’s hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV).

www.toyota.ca

 

[Sanoman]

That is cool. l will have to ask about the at the local Yoda store!

 

[mxmark4]

Ummmmmm BMW did it years ago. They had a hydrogen powered 7 series and a slogan like when the rest of the world is ready or something. used to see them around here they were tied into the Department of Energy out here in Oak Ridge.

 

[MarkWalker]

Then there was this in 1998..... https://www.unilad.co.uk/life/inventor-of-water-powered-car-died-screaming-they-poisoned-me/

 

[Pro-pulsion]

Ummmmmm BMW did it years ago. They had a hydrogen powered 7 series and a slogan like when the rest of the world is ready or something. used to see them around here they were tied into the Department of Energy out here in Oak Ridge.

It's too bad they didn't keep it going and perfecting it all through the years. To think our skis could be running on hydrogen right now instead of bank breaking pump fuel. Anyone could come up with distilled and filtered water for the electrolysis process unless these units are getting their hydrogen pumped in from a service center. I remember reading about how scientists have been working on making powdered hydrogen to eliminate the explosive danger a compressed cylinder of it carries.

Hydrogen can be stored as a powder - BetterWorldSolutions - The Netherlands

If the heavy industry can use hydrogen as an energy source, it will be a game changer in the fight against the warming from the earth.

www.betterworldsolutions.eu

 

[aboarder]

There were some major safety issues with these in the past. Number one is storing hydrogen in a pressurized onboard tank. The other major issue with past hydrogen cars was the lack of hydrogen fueling stations. Add to that moving trucks full of liquid hydrogen to those stations. As a firefighter, the thought of a tanker filled with liquid hydrogen getting involved in an accident scares the poop out of me.

 

[aboarder]

It's too bad they didn't keep it going and perfecting it all through the years. To think our skis could be running on hydrogen right now instead of bank breaking pump fuel. Anyone could come up with distilled and filtered water for the electrolysis process unless these units are getting their hydrogen pumped in from a service center. I remember reading about how scientists have been working on making powdered hydrogen to eliminate the explosive danger a compressed cylinder of it carries.

Hydrogen can be stored as a powder - BetterWorldSolutions - The Netherlands

If the heavy industry can use hydrogen as an energy source, it will be a game changer in the fight against the warming from the earth.

www.betterworldsolutions.eu

Creating hydrogen through electrolysis onboard uses more electricity than just running an electric motor. There was a time when I really wanted to be the one to make this technology a thing. I quickly learned about the downfalls when I started experimenting.

 

[mikidymac]

There were some major safety issues with these in the past. Number one is storing hydrogen in a pressurized onboard tank. The other major issue with past hydrogen cars was the lack of hydrogen fueling stations. Add to that moving trucks full of liquid hydrogen to those stations. As a firefighter, the thought of a tanker filled with liquid hydrogen getting involved in an accident scares the poop out of me.

Really no different than the semi trucks hauling LPG and natural gas everywhere.

 

[mikidymac]

Honda has made the Clarity Fuel Cell car since 2015.

 

[Pro-pulsion]

I can say that hydrogen packs a pretty massive punch when it combusts. That was the first thing I learned in the safety specs at my last job in the aluminum foundry. 1lb of hydrogen has the explosive equivalent of 3lbs of TNT. Obviously it's not quite the same on an apples to apples comparison but the work was done to make that determination. Molten aluminum will rip away hydrogen atoms if it falls onto water and encases it. Once the hydrogen is torn out it becomes highly combustible. The explosive categories in an aluminum foundry are 3 forces (aka classes), a force one will throw molten aluminum up to 15ft away, force two will throw it up to 50 feet away, force three is beyond 50 feet. Basically total decimation of the immediate foundry area all from hydrogen combustion.

casthouse is destroyed...3 dead, 4 injured.

aluminiumplantsafety.blogspot.com

^^^ hydrogen trapped under molten aluminum did that ^^^

 

[SteveC]

There were some major safety issues with these in the past. Number one is storing hydrogen in a pressurized onboard tank. The other major issue with past hydrogen cars was the lack of hydrogen fueling stations. Add to that moving trucks full of liquid hydrogen to those stations. As a firefighter, the thought of a tanker filled with liquid hydrogen getting involved in an accident scares the poop out of me.

The Fuel cells have solved the onboard storage part, I believe. It’s no longer just a tank of gas like propane (or NOS, for you F&F fans) but instead trapped between other molecules so it’s a slow release only, without oxygen near it while in storage (which of course is needed for oxidation).

 

[aboarder]

The Fuel cells have solved the onboard storage part, I believe. It’s no longer just a tank of gas like propane (or NOS, for you F&F fans) but instead trapped between other molecules so it’s a slow release only, without oxygen near it while in storage (which of course is needed for oxidation).

That's good to hear. They had to do something to get around having a bomb under your car.

Really no different than the semi trucks hauling LPG and natural gas everywhere.

The quantity being moved is the difference. I'm thinking if all trucks hauling gas or diesel are replaced with hydrogen, the odds of an incident are way too high. Hydrogen also ignites at a much larger mixture range. The upper level is 75% vs propane at 9%. That richness gives a much harder punch. That being said, those properties make it ideal for use in an engine.

 

[bird]

I can say that hydrogen packs a pretty massive punch when it combusts. That was the first thing I learned in the safety specs at my last job in the aluminum foundry. 1lb of hydrogen has the explosive equivalent of 3lbs of TNT. Obviously it's not quite the same on an apples to apples comparison but the work was done to make that determination. Molten aluminum will rip away hydrogen atoms if it falls onto water and encases it. Once the hydrogen is torn out it becomes highly combustible. The explosive categories in an aluminum foundry are 3 forces (aka classes), a force one will throw molten aluminum up to 15ft away, force two will throw it up to 50 feet away, force three is beyond 50 feet. Basically total decimation of the immediate foundry area all from hydrogen combustion.

casthouse is destroyed...3 dead, 4 injured.

aluminiumplantsafety.blogspot.com

View attachment 407170

^^^ hydrogen trapped under molten aluminum did that ^^^

One pound of Hydrogen is a poop ton. It's just a single proton, no neutrons. No 1 on the Periodic table...

 

[Pro-pulsion]

One pound of Hydrogen is a poop ton. It's just a single proton, no neutrons. No 1 on the Periodic table...

That's why I said they did the work to make that determination. I only read it, I don't know the full properties or logistics of the calculation.

 

[Storbeck]

Hydrogen is a dead end that will probably never work in a practical way. It's extremely difficult to store hydrogen, it permeates through just about everything, lower pressure or thicker heavier container gets you less permeation, thinner lighter container or lower pressure gets you more. It's also not very efficient, the energy required to produce the hydrogen and the overall efficiency of producing electricity from the hydrogen then powering a motor is less efficient than batteries, similar story for burning the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine. The future is batteries, Tesla currently way in front of anybody else with battery and electric motor/drive technology.

 

[mikidymac]

The future is electric and batteries for sure but the big question is how are we going to charge the batteries and make the power for all these electric vehicles, homes and industry? All I hear is the closing of power plants, no new hydroelectric and everyone just says solar. Problem with solar is it doesn't work when the sun isn't out.

 

[KMN]

The future is electric and batteries for sure but the big question is how are we going to charge the batteries and make the power for all these electric vehicles, homes and industry? All I hear is the closing of power plants, no new hydroelectric and everyone just says solar. Problem with solar is it doesn't work when the sun isn't out.

When electric vehicles are charged at night there is plenty of generation on the grid to power a lot of EV's.

Here is a sample of a load forecast in my area. Now, it's extremely cold, and only 5 mph winds forecasted in the next week so not much from wind.



If you see the load swings from day to night there are about 2000 MW of generation difference. That's pretty true in the summer time too.

Now the average US household uses 24 kwh of electricity per day. If that same amount of energy was charging a car it would do about 70-80 miles. Charging off peak covers most people's driving in 90% of the population. There is always options to charge during peak times too.

One way electric car companies could really benefit is to use their car battery's as a source during peak hours. Could sell electricity for $0.35 / kwh during peak rates, then charge at night at $.05 per kwh. Users could do this too. I think this is where Tesla will be headed with becoming their own energy company, leasing cars to people but utilizing them as power plants and robo taxis.

In general, the base load each year is declining. Due to shrinking manufacturing and efficiencies. Not many new power plants have been built in the past 30 years after a huge boom in the 60s and 70s. In order for our states and power companies to meet their carbon free goals some new technology will have to be developed and acceptance of new nuclear technologies. Wind and solar are part of the picture, the amount of wind out there is nuts. Sometimes we have 2000 MW of wind on the grid and we're flexing other units down to accommodate. My company is also developing hydrogen generation for these times in a pilot program.

It certainly is interesting times where its good to see a bunch of changes in a rather stagnant industry.


Edit: I went back to November just so I could get a screenshot of the load when a lot of wind was on the grid. Wind is growing more and more and we'll soon start storing it in batteries or something. Check it out:

 

[Storbeck]

I was about to type basically the same thing but you said it better than I could!

 

[Jetfiend]

Yeah, that sh*t worked out really well for the German's!

 

[SteveC]

So, if I understand this all correctly, what is being discussed is how cars are going to be stop being gasoline powered, and start being natural gas, coal, and (to a lessor extent) nuke powered - the dominant sources of electricity in the US. Well, to a FAR lessor extent, they will also be somewhat powered by hydroelectric and wind, and waaaaayyyyy less: solar. And finally, there will be (already are, I guess) cars that run on hydrogen, which are also fundamentally powered by coal/natgas/nuke since these are needed to generate the electricity used to isolate the hydrogen. Have I got that all correct, or no?