the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
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- okc
Yes. "Saber" is the 100:1 premix version. Neither of which are suitable for breaking in an engine, as they will only allow the rings to "polish" the bore, and not cut into it.
SXR What's the best way to run in a fresh 2 stroke motor
- Thread starter kawasaki9
- Start date
Yes. "Saber" is the 100:1 premix version. Neither of which are suitable for breaking in an engine, as they will only allow the rings to "polish" the bore, and not cut into it.
Says who? What's your own experience with this?
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
- Location
- okc
Well, my own "experience" with it is based on understanding how different abrasives work, and their effects on various metals, as well as how a cylinder with a "glaze" performs, vs. a crosshatched bore with rings that are seated properly into the bore. The filming strength of full synthetic oil on a freshly crosshatched cylinder will not allow the rings to seat properly into the bore, and will act as a polishing compound rather than a "cutting" type oil for the rings to seat with and produce a "healthy" cylinder. If you understand those basics, then you can just categorize them along with 1+1=2, 2+2=4, etc.. and go on about your happy way....lol
If there's anything in the above paragraph that you would like to dissect in order to understand it better, I would be more than happy to oblige your enthusiasm, sir.
:biggrin:
If there's anything in the above paragraph that you would like to dissect in order to understand it better, I would be more than happy to oblige your enthusiasm, sir.
:biggrin:
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the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
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- okc
Not necessary in order to know the effective differences of the two types of oil, if you already understand them. Correct?
Here's another way to look at it. The same reason full synthetic oils will make a top end last longer, is the same reason it won't allow rings to seat properly into a bore. It's filming strength is very resilient to breaking down with friction and heat. Friction and heat, and the breaking down of the oils filming strength is what allows the rings to seat into a bore. If there's virtually an impenetrable barrier of lubricating film between the rings and the bore, and the rings are constantly hydroplaning back and forth over the top of that protective barrier, how do you expect the rings to ever seat properly into the bore unless that protective film breaks down? They will only polish and close the surface of the bore, creating a glaze, Rather than the film breaking down under the heat cycles and friction, and allowing the rings to cut past the film and seat into the bore, like a conventional high-ash content oil does.
Here's another way to look at it. The same reason full synthetic oils will make a top end last longer, is the same reason it won't allow rings to seat properly into a bore. It's filming strength is very resilient to breaking down with friction and heat. Friction and heat, and the breaking down of the oils filming strength is what allows the rings to seat into a bore. If there's virtually an impenetrable barrier of lubricating film between the rings and the bore, and the rings are constantly hydroplaning back and forth over the top of that protective barrier, how do you expect the rings to ever seat properly into the bore unless that protective film breaks down? They will only polish and close the surface of the bore, creating a glaze, Rather than the film breaking down under the heat cycles and friction, and allowing the rings to cut past the film and seat into the bore, like a conventional high-ash content oil does.
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- Location
- Redding CA
Got to love this thread ;-)
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
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- okc
Matt, have you ever heard of street racers throwing Ajax or Comet brand cleaners into their carb intakes in order to seat their piston rings?
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
- Location
- okc
Actually, you are very wrong. I haven't read any of what I've told you on the internet. I've built rec and race engines for almost 30 years. Everything I've told you is from my own experience and learning about this stuff along the way, understanding how different oils perform, and just plain basic deduction. To answer your question, the answer is No, I have not performed the experiment of wasting money on a side-by-side comparison. I know enough about the elements involved that I don't need to waste the money in figuring it out the hard way. If you would like to do so, that's your choice, but I would figure that you're smart enough to understand the basics, without the necessity of going that route.
you're welcome :biggrin:
you're welcome :biggrin:
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
- Location
- okc
The thing is, Your engine will have compression regardless, but if you broke it in with full synthetic oil, it most likely still needs to be broken in, let alone if not have a hone put through it,depending on how many hours you've put it through, the surface broken, and ash oil to allow the rings to properly seat. When you seal off the surface of the bore by polishing it, you have to break it again so the rings will have something to drop into. Best case scenario with an engine treated like that is Yes, you will have "compression", and yes the rings will eventually "seat" but they will be seated against a polished bore, will not perform as well as a well seated top end, and you will need to rebuild the top end a lot sooner because of the a mirror finish on the cylinder walls, regardless of whether after break-in, you run full synth or not.
So, what exactly indicated to you that your rings seated? Just because your compression came up?
Just curious.
If it never wears in then it will never wear out, right? These engines last 100-300 hours if you're lucky, there is plenty of wear going on. Its not like a tractor or airplane that has to run full throttle for 40 hrs just to seat the rings, their cylinders can last over 5000 hrs.
WFO Speedracer
A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
- Location
- Alabama
Yeah 57 years ago on a Chevy 265 small block, after that not so much
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Depends on how it is set up . Some race motors only last two hours before a rebuild and would need rebuiling before breakin is over . They are setup with loose clearances and only need a few minutes .
There are some articles on Groupk about this . One is the SXI Pro article that takes a look at maccluggages motor vs groupk hammer .
There are some articles on Groupk about this . One is the SXI Pro article that takes a look at maccluggages motor vs groupk hammer .
WFO Speedracer
A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
- Location
- Alabama
I am just Curious Travis can you explain how the compression went up without the rings seating in, I can't wait to hear this one.
- Location
- fortcollins
i want to hear it too, im sure they seat with synthetic but general engine building practices are to use conventional oil
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
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- okc
The compression will come up regardless, and most likely not to the point it should be, just from heat cycles alone. That doesn't mean the rings are "cutting" into the bore like they're supposed to in order to properly and evenly seat. The problem is the rings will not evenly cut into the bore like they're supposed to, they will sit against a "polished" bore, and the top end will not last as long before needing a rebuild, because the surface of the cylinder has been closed off with a glaze before the rings could cut into the surface. Also, the overall performance of the engine will suffer compared to one broken in properly.
As long as some of you guys have been doing this stuff, I can't believe you actually have to be told, TERRY!!!
lol
As long as some of you guys have been doing this stuff, I can't believe you actually have to be told, TERRY!!!
lol
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Ive always assembled top ends dry . A lot of breakin happens in the first minute .
the WaTeRhAwK
fryin' up a/m electrics..
- Location
- okc
Well, the engine "broken in" with full synthetic and high film strength oil will yield an uneven ring seat at best, if any at all. A polished surface of the crosshatch on the cylinders surface, not cut in by the rings. Possibly uneven compression. Comparably next to another duplicate engine, the one broken in properly will of course perform better, and the top end will last longer before needing to have the glaze broke and/or the cylinder re cut.
I'm sure with 1000 cc's you didn't notice much of a power loss....lol
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WFO Speedracer
A lifetime ban is like a lifetime warranty !
- Location
- Alabama
Travis trust me I don't have to be told, but seriously the compression will only come up if the rings seat in, the only other thing that can possibly bring the compression up is carbon buildup on the piston crown and combustion chamber, I guess if you substituted 30 weight non detergent motor oil for two stroke oil you could accomplish this feat.You could also increase compression by plugging up the exhaust, neither will run well for long.
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