Pro Builders Help - Very High Compression for No Reason

This is a weird one that I and several others haven't been able to figure out.

My rebuilt 701 motor that I've been working on for my SuperJet is your average limited setup. FP B-pipe, 37cc head, OEM twin 38mm (135/75/1.5/95g), stock 62T cases, V-Force 2 reeds, MSD Enhancer, 12/17 Freeride prop, .75mm Pro-X pistons, 61X cylinder with only port matched transfers and VERY mild exhaust port widening (top/bottom exhaust port has not been raised or lowered).

Symptom: (at sea level)
With stock head = 150psi compression.
With billet Blowsion and 37cc domes = between 195 and 210 psi (average between 5 different gauges - Snap-On was 210psi)

I first used the 35cc domes and it raised my compression by 7 to 10 psi when compared to the 37cc domes. Technically, on paper I should see close to 170psi with the 37cc domes and 180-185psi with the 35cc domes.

Mechanicals:
Squish is right at .052" (35cc or 37cc domes), cylinder deck height has not been altered, case deck has not been altered, crankshaft is within spec, N&S are not leaking, motor holds 8psi leak-down test, all new OEM gaskets. Supposedly, this is the first time this motor had been rebuilt (STD core parts).

Items to blame:
Head - I can't see the head is the cause because I tried it with 2 different size dome and both show unusually high compression. After talking with Blowsion, they say this is an isolated case and they don't see these high compression numbers on similar setups.

Cylinder or cases- If the cylinder or cases have been decked, I would see a much closer squish band (mine is .052"). Besides, if I put a stock head back on it its right at 150psi all day long.

Solution:
I don't have one and would love to know what the solution is. I certainly don't want to run race gas for a freeride ski and at times, I plan to run it at WOT. The "work around" solution would be to custom cut a set of domes but this really isn't the proper solution since this shouldn't be happening in the first place.

Ideas? (besides the basics)
 
Are you sure they are 37cc domes? Did you cc them out? They could be mismarked. Did you cc the dome while its on the cylinder. That and squish are what really matters. Just some ideas to look into.
Erik
 
Are you sure they are 37cc domes? Did you cc them out? They could be mismarked. Did you cc the dome while its on the cylinder. That and squish are what really matters. Just some ideas to look into.
Erik
Well, the 35cc and 37cc domes are CNC marked from Blowsion and I tried to cc the domes (not installed) using a 10cc syringe and came damn close to what it calls for with my somewhat crude system (within 2cc). Blowsion had said they had issues with the early versions but have resolved that a while back.

I am under the impression domes are measured not installed with plug installed.

FYI: These Blowsion domes have a (nice) wider .570" wide squish band and the angle is the same .052" squish from edge to edge (to the blending radius).
 
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Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
An aftermarket head takes a longer spark plug than stock. Your compression gauge...are you using the same threaded end piece in both measurements (stock vs. Blowsion head)?
Make sure that that threaded end piece does not protrude past where a spark plug would.

About the porting: If anything, FS porting will lower the compression a little bit.
The oversize pistons will increase compression by a small bit.
The Blowsion head utilizes O-Rings, right? Not a head gasket?

I think the domes are suspect. Using your syringe method, measure the capacity of the 35cc domes, the 37cc domes, and the stock head domes.
(I know you did already, but try it again, with plugs in place, and measurements as accurate as possible)

If the motor is indeed stock (not decked, etc) - and I think it is, considering the 150 psi reading with a stocker head - then the only logical conclusion is a faulty head.
 

Waste Land

Non Multa Sed Multum
Location
Florence, AL
Would the plug in the middle of the dome during water test not take up space resulting in a small cc?

I have no idea on motor problem, but am curious on methods and such for future tech
 
I know with my compression tester I have two different hoses with different screw in attachments. On 35cc domes with one attachment I'll get 185-190 psi and on the other attachment I'll get 200-205psi. I don't know if that helps or not.:biggthumpup:
 

Big Kahuna

Administrator
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
I would say domes..........

what size pistons do you have?? 81.75mm??

at 81mm with 35cc ADA domes I had 175lbs compression, with 83mm pistons I am about 185-190 lbs compression (at sealevel it jumps about 5-10 lbs).

you got a weird one!!!!!!!!
 
An aftermarket head takes a longer spark plug than stock. Your compression gauge...are you using the same threaded end piece in both measurements (stock vs. Blowsion head)?
Make sure that that threaded end piece does not protrude past where a spark plug would.

About the porting: If anything, FS porting will lower the compression a little bit.
The oversize pistons will increase compression by a small bit.
The Blowsion head utilizes O-Rings, right? Not a head gasket?

I think the domes are suspect. Using your syringe method, measure the capacity of the 35cc domes, the 37cc domes, and the stock head domes.
(I know you did already, but try it again, with plugs in place, and measurements as accurate as possible)

If the motor is indeed stock (not decked, etc) - and I think it is, considering the 150 psi reading with a stocker head - then the only logical conclusion is a faulty head.
Matt, I realize and already took into consideration all of the things you pointed out. Like I said, I've already covered the basics. As for the logical conclusion of it being the head...that is what I though and the reason why I ordered a new set of dome (37cc). However, what are the odds that 4 set of domes are faulty or marked wrong. For Blowsion's sake (and mine), I would hope their domes are more tightly monitored. If I had a ADA or similar head with 35cc domes sitting here I would try it to compare. I have a friend with a 34cc head that I may swap to try.

And yes, the Blowsion head is all o-ring.

Would the plug in the middle of the dome during water test not take up space resulting in a small cc?
The plug thread area is not part of the equation when dealing with compression ratios. Technically, neither is the plug and ideally the plug hole should be flat filled even with the dome. What I do is install the plug and with it and domes upside down I pre-fill the spark plug with water/alcohol to take up the void where the ceramic cone is...then I cc the dome.

I would say domes..........

what size pistons do you have?? 81.75mm??

at 81mm with 35cc ADA domes I had 175lbs compression, with 83mm pistons I am about 185-190 lbs compression (at sealevel it jumps about 5-10 lbs).

you got a weird one!!!!!!!!
Yes, 81.75mm. Yep, this one is odd. It would only figure especially since I recently sold the most reliable SJ I ever had had/seen.

I'll say this, with only 5 gallons ran through this new motor it simply RIPS!! But I've been so gentle with it because I fear detonation or another boom! I feel like my prom date is wearing steel underwear with a pad-lock.

At this point I may just say F'it and run the piss out of it...if it blows...it blows. But I've already seized this before with only 1 hour (most likely caused by 1 of 2 carbs getting blockage in a jet).

:skull2::banghead::skull2::banghead::skull2:
 

Jr.

Standing Tall
Staff member
Site Supporter
Location
Hot-Lanta
I'm assuming you did a complete rebuild with new pistons. That would also say you changed the base gasket. You state the squish is .052, this is a very good number for what you are running. However, on an unaltered cyl, the normal squish falls between .060 - .070. I'm guessing that with the tight squish & raised compression, you recieved a .010 base. A normal base gasket is .020.
Just a theory, but the numbers you are suppling add up!

If you would like more help, feel free to give me a call Monday

ski ya, Paul
 
i'd run race gas for this motor and forget aboout it...
When I ride, I ride all day and its not uncommon that I eat up 10 to 12 gallons per day. Many times I even fill up on the water at marinas. Running race gas is unacceptable.

I'm assuming you did a complete rebuild with new pistons. That would also say you changed the base gasket. You state the squish is .052, this is a very good number for what you are running. However, on an unaltered cyl, the normal squish falls between .060 - .070. I'm guessing that with the tight squish & raised compression, you recieved a .010 base. A normal base gasket is .020.
Just a theory, but the numbers you are suppling add up!

If you would like more help, feel free to give me a call Monday

ski ya, Paul
Yes Paul, new rebuild using Pro-X pistons. As stated I used all OEM gaskets and I already double checked my base gasket, its .020" on the money.

You say squish normally falls between .060 to .070...is that with a billet head?

Just for sake of argument, I plan to check squish on a stock 61X head with this setup.

If I get nowhere over the weekend with this, I'll call you on Monday. Thanks for the offer!!
 

keefer

T1
Location
Tennessee
It depends on what altitude you come from. If you are in Denver and are running small domes to get 185 and come down from 5000 ft to sea level then yes your compression will come up considerably. If you are coming from our area at around 500 ft to sea level then you won't see much difference. Maybe a pound or two. I am sure that Jr. or another knowledgeable engine builder could come up with a chart that shows the difference in compression based on altitude and dome sizes.
 
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Hi Sanford,

I have a new set of 39cc domes for that head. I just bought one of the last Pro-design heads that Tom had, and for some reason unbeknown to me, they sent 39cc domes instead of the 37's I requested. I have also always used the 37's. Now you have me all stressed, as the engine this is going on has the same basic porting as yours, but I have 1.5 oversize pistons. If you want them, PM me, I have 37's coming and was planning on sending these back.

Steve
 
UPDATE: I rode the SJ today (test lake) and it now has had 10 gallons ran through her. Runs great. Pulled head off several times to inspect and so far so good. I'm still running it VERY rich on the top just to be safe. Tomorrow I may take it out to the ocean (lake gets old quick).

Is it possible the crowns on the top of the pistons may be mis machined or just the wrong type,
Naa. I have had 4 pistons on the motor in as many days. Pro-X are some of the most consistent and best pistons out there. Its all I will use.

FWIW: If its not obvious, I appreciate all suggestions guys :biggthumpup:
 
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