relay jump 'bout killed me and the ski

[Pablo]

allright...no one has gave me a heads up on the relay jump thread in driveline, so I asked a friend at church and went about it in true "Darwinian" style. I almost put natural selection to work. I've got an analog TL that seems to be wired correctly. However, when I try to start it all I get is a loud click from relay.

The pics of my relay are far from great, but see if you can guide me. I tried jumping the starter wire side and the lanyard-on/off side. Both sides spit big sparks and the starter side made a huge pop/bang sound almost like a backfire and lots of ozone smell in the shop. I've got the all the fuel lines primed and a full tank and don't care much for sparks and bangs. Scared the pi$$ out of me.
I still get loud clicks out of relay when I try it start it. Batt volts read 12.7 and the starter worked last fall when i put it up. I took the starter apart and put new seals and exterior connects on it. My wiring is per the MSD schematic. I've got a few concerns with wiring and it's the lanyard they show seperate from the starter switch. I take it the starter switch they have listed is my OEM lanyard-on/off. I have an on/off toggle wired from brain (purple wire) to positive batt...no lanyard between the batt and toggle. Do I need that? Also, I have the lanyard-on/off wired as so: white/black from on/off to the pickup wires, and the red/brown from on/off to the relay pos. and negs. Might I need to reverse the red/brown? Do I have the white/black and red/brown going to the correct places? :smashfreakB:

 

[Pablo]

From where to where should I be jumping the relay? The starter side connection to where? OR the switch side pos. to neg.? The sparks and gas in hull are a little concerning.

 

[Kennay]

Almost sounds like you shorted the starter somehow... hmm

So it worked, and then now all of a sudden it's not, and when you jump the solenoid, it makes a pop at the starter?

Probably the solenoid if it's shorting itself

 

[Kennay]

And you should be jumping the relay from + to +

 

[Pablo]

you think the ozone blast was from shorting the starter motor?

 

[sflsurfrider]

it looks likr you have 1 the starter positive on the same stud as a neg wire that goes to the battery.... or thats what it looks like (and says, i think) in your pic.

you should have a negative on one small terminal, the brown from the sss on the other small terminal, the + from the battery on one big terminal (this usually feeds the CDI/msd with another small red wire), and the + to the starter on the other big terminal.

 

[Kennay]

you think the ozone blast was from shorting the starter motor?

If by "Ozone blast" you mean burning electrical components? If so, yes. opworm:

 

[sflsurfrider]

you think the ozone blast was from shorting the starter motor?

you cant 'short' the starter internally by doing anything backwards, unless MAYBE you hook the battery up wrong. even then, it should just spin backward, since its a DC motor, so unless you had other issues with your starter, it should be fine.

whats up with the ground to the battery going to where the positive wire is. are they on the same post?

 

[yamasaki]

yeah, the relay trick is just putting a screwdriver across both + terminals on the starter relay and bridging them so you can manually engage the relay and get teh starter cranking.

i'm not sure i understand the root of your problem tho. did the ski not crank over when you pressed the start button? was that the original problem?

i ride ..well.. rode... alot of saltwater and i used to have problems with my wires corroding inside after time. it was hard as hell to troubleshoot because if you put a light tester to the large ground or positive cables, the light would light up when you tried to turn it over.. but the majority of the wires were corroded. i usually have to replace the large ground or positive wires like once a year or every other year.. just something to think about if youre having weird starting issues.

 

[Pablo]

it looks likr you have 1 the starter positive on the same stud as a neg wire that goes to the battery.... or thats what it looks like (and says, i think) in your pic.

you should have a negative on one small terminal, the brown from the sss on the other small terminal, the + from the battery on one big terminal (this usually feeds the CDI/msd with another small red wire), and the + to the starter on the other big terminal.

thanks for the info...on my pic far left on relay is stud that goes out to starter only. rotating CCW, the next small stud is to batt neg. only. next small stud is to brown switch wire (is that considered neg?). And last on far right is thick red wire coming from batt pos. and out to the red of red/brown from lanyard-on/off. There is one wire from batt neg that loops around behind relay to a ground nut...it's labeled in pic about the 4 o'clock posn. Does any of that look/sound wrong or off. I'm ALLLLLLL EARS and ready for an arse chewin' if need be.

 

[Pablo]

yeah, the relay trick is just putting a screwdriver across both + terminals on the starter relay and bridging them so you can manually engage the relay and get teh starter cranking.

i'm not sure i understand the root of your problem tho. did the ski not crank over when you pressed the start button? was that the original problem?

i ride ..well.. rode... alot of saltwater and i used to have problems with my wires corroding inside after time. it was hard as hell to troubleshoot because if you put a light tester to the large ground or positive cables, the light would light up when you tried to turn it over.. but the majority of the wires were corroded. i usually have to replace the large ground or positive wires like once a year or every other year.. just something to think about if youre having weird starting issues.

yeah Saki, the ski never started after rebuild. Just a loud click/thunk sound from relay. I tried to jump it and was a little humbled after that experience.

 

[Pablo]

whats up with the ground to the battery going to where the positive wire is. are they on the same post?

thx again SFLrider...they're not on the same post, that ground wire loops around behind relay to a solitary nut/screw for a ground on the plate...is that O.K. for a ground?

 

[Pablo]

Should I be jumping the relay and getting sparks? And should I be even be messing with this having a full tank of fuel in the thing?

 

[Kennay]

Dude, just go do the wire to wire thing I told you about to rule out the starter or connections haha, then come back and say "Wire to wire worked, or wire to wire didn't"

If it does, then you know it is either a bad solenoid, or your wiring is off.

 

[sflsurfrider]

not sure why youd have 2 grounds going to it. are you sure that its really a ground?

 

[Matt_E]

With TL, it is a good idea to run a dedicated ground to the TL.

The reason you're getting sparks: You're essentially shorting the battery. There's a lot of current flowing, so sparks are no surprise.
When you short the posts on the relay, don't **********-foot around. Press that screw driver on there, and be serious about it. (prevents the sparks somewhat)
My money is on the starter being bad. No offense, but you risk messing up the starter when you take it apart and work on it.
Try shorting the relay posts again and see if it starts.
Or, take the positive starter cable off the relay, and put it directly on the battery.
If it spins, the starter is good.

 

[Talsivar]

if your relay is clicking over when you push the start button i would say you have it hooked up right. I had a bad relay that would still click when you hit the start button. if you jump the relay and the starter spins then i would say your relay is bad.

 

[Pablo]

the loud pop with ozone must have been the starter frying. I pulled the starter and tried to connect it to the positive battery lead. Nothing happened. Does the starter require an individual ground? My Clymers manual shows a ground wire to one of the bolts holding the starter. I have the batt. grounded to the TL mounting plate. The batt still shows 12.7 V, the TL brain still lights up with the pickup and the relay still clicks with the start button, but no action with the starter. Is this the only way to say the relay is bad? Can I check it with a volt/ohm/amp meter?

 

[surferdude345]

You can check the realy by putting a test light on the neg batt side - to the starter side of the relay when you hit the starter the light should light

 

[augustaf]

the loud pop with ozone must have been the starter frying. I pulled the starter and tried to connect it to the positive battery lead. Nothing happened. Does the starter require an individual ground? My Clymers manual shows a ground wire to one of the bolts holding the starter. I have the batt. grounded to the TL mounting plate. The batt still shows 12.7 V, the TL brain still lights up with the pickup and the relay still clicks with the start button, but no action with the starter. Is this the only way to say the relay is bad? Can I check it with a volt/ohm/amp meter?

There should be a black 6 ga ground wire running from the neg bat terminal to the top 8mm (12mm head!) mounting capscrew of the starter. That's how it gets it's ground. The wire which grounds your msd (and mounting plate), should be a separate 14 or 16 ga wire hooked up to intake man or directly to the bat if you so wish. If you have a ground to the starter and then energize the + terminal (6mm, 10mm nut size)on that starter it should turn!!!!