Yamaha XS1000 vs. Kawasaki Kommander/Dasa 1000 - Observations

[Big Kahuna]

I am intrigued by the comparison but don't find this to be a true apple to apple test. There are too many variables between the two to call it a straight forward comparison but intrigued just the same. So could you argue dollar for dollar or part for part. The pipe difference, compression difference, nozzle, ignition (that’s huge) puts these two a distance apart, and you could argue ignition importance and pipe to intension. I do think it’s unfair to say one companies design is better based on such variances. What I’d like to see is upgrading the Kawi’s parts to match the Yami’s, then we’d have a comparison.

I agree, the only way for this comparison to be remotely even is to have the only differences being the Kawi Block and the Yamaha block. Carbs, electronics, Exhaust, Pump all need to be the same.

 

[DAG]

I agree, the only way for this comparison to be remotely even is to have the only differences being the Kawi Block and the Yamaha block. Carbs, electronics, Exhaust, Pump all need to be the same.

That's true only if you want to say yamaha is better than kawi or vice versa.

but comparing 2 engine builders complete setup you can say this setup is better than the other by looking at the overall picture.
This thread was about comparing Kommanders 1000cc setup to XS 1000cc setup. I believe this is fair with the variables being the hull and body weight of each rider.

 

[jetkid]

These are just Roo's observations on the two motors that he has a access too and I think he is just letting people know what he has found out. Thanks Roo for doing that. If some one else has the money to do that same thing, do it how you want! I also dont think any one said one company was better than another?!??

 

[DR3]

ya but that xs1000 gets violent :headbang:

 

[Big Kahuna]

WAIT, Kommander is not even recommending his own ignition on his own setup?

i see a red flag?

I think he is referring to the Blowsion ignition module with Kommander timing curves. The Advent is better.

 

[Big Kahuna]

That's true only if you want to say yamaha is better than kawi or vice versa.

but comparing 2 engine builders complete setup you can say this setup is better than the other by looking at the overall picture.
This thread was about comparing Kommanders 1000cc setup to XS 1000cc setup. I believe this is fair with the variables being the hull and body weight of each rider.

A true comparison would be using the same hulls for a test. Using the variables about the hulls and body weight are just handicaps.

It is a good compairison non the less. We are just getting technical on it. No Worries!


I dont consider it a Kawi or Yamaha comparison since neither cylinders are OEM.

 

[Kommander Ind.]

WAIT, Kommander is not even recommending his own ignition on his own setup?

i see a red flag?

That is not my/Kommander Ignition. It is an ignition that Blowsion sells and some how my name has been attached to it. It does have 3 timing curves that I designed but I have nothing to do with the ignition other than that.

Steve

 

[Kommander Ind.]

I am pretty sure that Roo rode this ski the very first day it was put in the water. We are still sorting out many of the parts that the customer supplied such as Pipe with wrong size nozzle, pump with to big of prop, nozzles to small, bad ignitions and other issues outside of the motor. I am sure once we get all his issues sorted out that it will be a better time to do a head to head comparison. This is the very First Dasa Kawi cylinder of this size to be done. I am confident that once we sort out the few little issues we will have a motor package that is very similar in power to any other 1000cc set up.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Big Kahuna]

I am pretty sure that Roo rode this ski the very first day it was put in the water. We are still sorting out many of the parts that the customer supplied such as Pipe with wrong size nozzle, pump with to big of prop, nozzles to small, bad ignitions and other issues outside of the motor. I am sure once we get all his issues sorted out that it will be a better time to do a head to head comparison. This is the very First Dasa Kawi cylinder of this size to be done. I am confident that once we sort out the few little issues we will have a motor package that is very similar in power to any other 1000cc set up.

Thanks,
Steve

Cool

 

[Roo]

WAIT, Kommander is not even recommending his own ignition on his own setup?

i see a red flag?

Typo on my part. Blowsion Ignition is what I should have said - Sorry Kommander!

water injection should help on the kawi.did wonders on the kawi 750 dry pipes.the 25psi will make for some of the difference in brap.

He does have a water injection setup - maybe he will explore using it? Not sure yet... and yes, 25 psi does make a difference, but in my opinion, not a RADICAL difference.

I wish someone would put a post like this up on one of the EME polaris motors.

PowerFactor/EME Drivetrains have been on my mind Maybe one day...

I am intrigued by the comparison but don't find this to be a true apple to apple test. There are too many variables between the two to call it a straight forward comparison but intrigued just the same. So could you argue dollar for dollar or part for part. The pipe difference, compression difference, nozzle, ignition (that’s huge) puts these two a distance apart, and you could argue ignition importance and pipe to intension. I do think it’s unfair to say one companies design is better based on such variances. What I’d like to see is upgrading the Kawi’s parts to match the Yami’s, then we’d have a comparison.

I don't believe I ever once said one is better than another... what I did say is one performed better than another. True, there are differences between the two setups, however they are pretty damn close in my opinion (with the exception of the hulls).

 

[ATS_Aaron]

PowerFactor/EME Drivetrains have been on my mind Maybe one day....

I made that phone call one day. The PowerFactor 1100cc engine is something like $11,000 for the shortblock. No carbs, no manifolds, no electronics.

 

[Roo]

Adding water injection will not turn a dry pipe into a wet pipe. It is just another way to tune the pipe. The water cuts off at a pre-determined RPM point.

??? I don't entirely agree with this. However, I will agree it is another way to tune the system.

I agree, the only way for this comparison to be remotely even is to have the only differences being the Kawi Block and the Yamaha block. Carbs, electronics, Exhaust, Pump all need to be the same.

If money grew on trees

These are just Roo's observations on the two motors that he has a access too and I think he is just letting people know what he has found out. Thanks Roo for doing that. If some one else has the money to do that same thing, do it how you want! I also dont think any one said one company was better than another?!??

No problem buddy, I know this thread would stir some stuff up but I will take the chance.

And you hit the big point - I never once said one COMPANY is better then another.

 

[Roo]

ya but that xs1000 gets violent :headbang:

True that

I think he is referring to the Blowsion ignition module with Kommander timing curves. The Advent is better.

True - my mistake for any typo's on that. Advent is better on the way (I believe).

A true comparison would be using the same hulls for a test. Using the variables about the hulls and body weight are just handicaps.

It is a good compairison non the less. We are just getting technical on it. No Worries!


I dont consider it a Kawi or Yamaha comparison since neither cylinders are OEM.

If we had the means / time to do a back to back in the same hull - I would love to. Unfortunatly it is not feasable.

Body weight would be mine only as I am giving my point of view after riding both machines.

That is not my/Kommander Ignition. It is an ignition that Blowsion sells and some how my name has been attached to it. It does have 3 timing curves that I designed but I have nothing to do with the ignition other than that.

Steve

Steve is correct and I apologize for any typo's when I said Kommander Ignition.

 

[Roo]

I am pretty sure that Roo rode this ski the very first day it was put in the water. We are still sorting out many of the parts that the customer supplied such as Pipe with wrong size nozzle, pump with to big of prop, nozzles to small, bad ignitions and other issues outside of the motor. I am sure once we get all his issues sorted out that it will be a better time to do a head to head comparison. This is the very First Dasa Kawi cylinder of this size to be done. I am confident that once we sort out the few little issues we will have a motor package that is very similar in power to any other 1000cc set up.

Thanks,
Steve

Actually I rode it first day, and after John Ike had worked with it a little more. The changes he made did make a difference.

I am very excited to see how it performs after all these changes (well, not more then Todd I am sure). Get my riding buddy back up before July!

I made that phone call one day. The PowerFactor 1100cc engine is something like $11,000 for the shortblock. No carbs, no manifolds, no electronics.

Wow - that just plain retarded... WOW, I am actually blown away by that. That is almost double the XS1000 motor. How is that justified?

 

[Big Kahuna]

??? I don't entirely agree with this. However, I will agree it is another way to tune the system.



If money grew on trees



No problem buddy, I know this thread would stir some stuff up but I will take the chance.

And you hit the big point - I never once said one COMPANY is better then another.

A wet pipe uses water to control the overall temps as well as helping with the tune of the pipe. A dry pipe uses a seperate jacket for the cooling and using the entire shape of the chamber to control the tuning of the pipe. Injecting a small amound of water does not do anything for the cooling, it does cool the exhaust gases comming through making the motor think it has a longer expansion chamber. Just by having water injection does not turn a dry pipe into a wet pipe unless you let the water stay on 100% of the time. The idea of the ECWI is to add water at the lower RPM's to make the motor think it has longer pipe causing the tune to give you more power down low and then cut off allowing you to get peak RPM's.


Take the Type 4, it came out around the same time as the Kawi dry pipe for the 750 did. The 4 ran good from all parts of the powerband, a ECWI could help it some, but it did fine without, Now take the Kawi Dry pipe for the 750. The only way for this pipe to really work well was to utilize the ECWI. FPP recommended this if you wanted any kind of bottom power. But regardless if they were utilized these are still "Dry Pipes"

 

[scottie mac]

Some pipes won't work worth a crap without water injection. Example - the 951 coffman's pipe is worthless without the ECWI. Some set ups don't like water injection. I tried it on my Judge Lamey's with a Octane pipe and it was worse than it was without it. Don't really know why, just was.

I would think with 1000ccs and Webster, it is just a matter of getting the right set up to get the power to the water. No matter who built the ski and no matter what parts are on it, if it isn't set up right, it won't run worth a d@mn.

Scottie

 

[Lucaumpits]

yeap that true, last time I talked with Mark Bexter told me the same 11k for short block, by the time u add carbs, pipe, MSD, intake manifold and pump, u are up on 20k just for engine set up.
we you talk big performance, thousands add it up quick

I made that phone call one day. The PowerFactor 1100cc engine is something like $11,000 for the shortblock. No carbs, no manifolds, no electronics.

 

[Roo]

yeap that true, last time I talked with Mark Bexter told me the same 11k for short block, by the time u add carbs, pipe, MSD, intake manifold and pump, u are up on 20k just for engine set up.
we you talk big performance, thousands add it up quick

I'd love to know what justifies $11k... how does that break down? (crank / cases / cylinder wise)

 

[Tru]

roo dont forget what chuck said! steve webster know more than i do!!! the exact words out off his mouth!!! i know its hard to beleve but true! just give me a lil time and i will have the bugs out and watch out roo!!!!

 

[Scorn800]

Steve Webster know how to build a kawasaki to rip. Sounds like you just need more tuning. Good luck dude