MSD TL talk

[norcal ex]

I Just bought a Vilder ignition. I have been reading up and trying to decide what curve to run and in my readings i am getting a conflict. Some people say that the reason MSD TL is so good is the fact that it has a hotter spark and custom ignition curves. on the other hand, people are saying that the hotter spark doesnt do anyhting for performance (http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/2734&highlight=hotter+spark) .... Why is MSD TL so good then? is it the fact that its programable and can run a very lightwight flywheel? So over the vilder, the only difference is the flywheel?

 

[sjetrider]

Flywheel is a huge difference. And IMO hotter stronger spark also make a huge difference. Let one of your stock lighting coils drop below 10% for nominal ohms readings and see how your boat runs. You will have consistant spark, but it will be week and you will loose bottom end sevierly. This tells me that more and more controled spark is GOOD.

 

[Matt_E]

The MSD flywheel weighs 1-3/4 lbs. Stock 62T is just under 4lbs. I don't know exactly what the RAD flywheel weighs.
I think the VIlder requires you to run either stock or AM charging flywheel - even when you run it in Total Loss mode.
The charging flywheels have a lot of weight on the circumference of the flywheel - the MSD FW doesn't have that hurdle. IMHO, it's a very significant difference.
I think the programmibility is similar between MSD and Vilder, but I am not sure.

 

[norcal ex]

Vilder needs oem or Vilder flywheel. in the instrustions it says dont run a lightened OEM flywheel, but in the next sentence it says to buy a vilder one, so i think its a marketing plea.

I am running a 61x lightened flywheel, its much lighter than 4lbs. so is the only advantage of MSD the flywheel, the spark has nothing to do with it? if so, why do they run 2 HUGE coils?

 

[Matt_E]

I don't think Spark energy matters all that much. What makes you think the coils are huge? I don't think they are that big. :dunno:

The total weight of the FW is not the only factor here...as I explained. You need to look at where the weight is located.
Any charging flywheel will have magnets right below the ring gear. That is quite a bit more mass to get going, far away from the center. This translates into more rotational momentum, blah blah blah....point is, the MSD flywheel is not only lighter, but most of its mass is centered around the hub, not on the outside - huge difference.

 

[sjetrider]

Why would you say spark does not matter?

 

[Matt_E]

I didn't say it doesn't matter at all - I just don't think it's the one deciding advantage of the MSD TL.

For comparison, I believe stock spark electrode voltage is about 15,000-20,000 Volts.
I think MSD TL voltage is between 30,000 - 50,000 Volts.

The TL spark will produce better burn, sure. But both are sufficient to light it off. :biggthumpup:

 

[norcal ex]

Could i run a curve from a MSD TL on my advent, or does it not work like that?

 

[Matt_E]

I am no expert...but I think the curve data is transferrable between otherwise equal engine setups. (Of course, the Vilder will not let the engine rev up as quickly - so that might be an issue)
PM Supertune, he's got good info.
Randy @ Watcon and John @ Jetskisolutions are also great sources of parts & info.

Also, remember to always check the actual timing on a running motor with a timing light.
I am willing to bet money that 25 Deg BTD aren't the same on MSD vs Vilder.
(They should be, but you should always check!)

 

[norcal ex]

hmmm i see

 

[Eric C]

When you buy the tl setups new, can you get them preprogrammed from MSD? For people like me who have no clue?

 

[Matt_E]

You could probably get them to do that (I really don't know).
However, every engine is different, and the rider may put very custom demands on it.
To get the most advantage out of the system, you should understand how to and why to program a curve.

 

[SUPERTUNE]

The MSD TL's ignition coils are rated at 34,000 volts, and I think the stock SJ ignition is what Matt says...15,000-20,000.
Vilders do work very nice for a charging system, one good point is you can run a lot of compression and and still have good idle quality because of using the stock heavier flywheel, the MSD's sometimes won't idle as long in the water (with a lot of compression and lot of static timing) when learning the more difficult slower tricks. MSD TL's can be a pain in the a-s-s in saltwater use due to the much higher coil voltage wanting to short out the coil leads when they get wet...

 

[egbrig]

The Vilder will work as good with good coils as an MSD . I personally have seen a 5mm stroke with 210psi compression not work with stock ign. but work with the Vilder. The vilder flywheel uses rare earth magnets which won't fail and the flywheel is about 9oz. or so heavier than a MSD TL flywheel. The Vilder was designed to give the most accurate timing posible. Also you can put any type of curve you want with it advance and retard spark however you want, you can't do that with the MSD. There is not enough space here to wright the differences between the two but if you can find a flywheel get it. I think Mooky has one still.

 

[Mouthfulloflake]

I would like to see an ignition that could advance the spark more than the static timing.

:biggrin:

 

[Matt_E]

You could do it....but it would not be "advancing it" but retarding it 360 degrees minus (desired advance before static timing)

:biggthumpup:

 

[Mouthfulloflake]

then you would have a future seeing ignition.

I want one that can tell milliseconds before I nail the throttle that I am about to, and change the timing to 35 BTDC right then.

hehe

You could do it....but it would not be "advancing it" but retarding it 360 degrees minus (desired advance before static timing)

:biggthumpup:

 

[Matt_E]

The rotational speed of the flywheel isn't going to change a whole lot from one to the next revolution.

I see your point, obviously.
The solution is to dial the static timing where you want it at, and program the curve to match.

 

[Mouthfulloflake]

yeah,

I wonder how exact they are?

it seems like alot of trial and error to compensate for the delay in signal and such.

interesting stuff, I wish I knew more about logic circuits to mess with some of that stuff, my father has the knowledge, but he doesnt have the desire to indulge all of my projects.

 

[Matt_E]

It's not that hard. The signal has plenty of time to process, in logic circuit timescale.