MS109 Goodness

[Cannibal]

A bit!?! lol

Well, ya, with only a 10% mix of methanol to gas, just a bit. But running it straight, ya, you'd need basically double your jets, and that's assuming your needles could be richened enough to flow that. Racing methanol carbs are specifically modified to methanol and very temperamental. Also, I don't know what our rubber parts are made from. Certain rubbers will swell like crazy with methanol. At 10%, I think we'd be safe. I believe MTBE has the same issues with rubber as does ethanol that most of us are forced to run in a 10% mixture anyway. That said, I don't think I'd want to mix 10% methanol with E10. Maybe it's not an issue, maybe so.

Oh, and a quick calculation and I get that a 10% mix of methanol will provide 2.55%/wt oxygen where something like Turbo Blue's 104 is 4.5%

 

[masterblaster]

I checked our local place, all they carry is Turbo Blue 104, 110, 112, and 116. No VP at all. Any clue what percent/wt of oxygen the MS109 has? I can't find anything.

Most testing reports are that it contains aprox 30% more oxy into the mixture,being composed of mostly nitropropane and that represents about a 5% increase in hp.oxygenates simply allow your motor to be a tad "bigger" since some of the "air" in the motor is carried by the fuel itself. When you have this, you can keep adding fuel so long as you can keep enough air in the cylinder to keep your A/F correct.



why not use a oxy race fuel in a 180 comp lim boat,well there is more to it than the octane.... of course you cant have 110% octane, but you can have the equivalent. By using additives like Tetraethyle Lead, you increase its ability to withstand compression and higher ignition advance similar to that of 100 octane + 10% etc. They call it a performance rating.but if your boat is not using either you would see very little gain but spend alot of $

So,the higher the Octane %, the harder is it to burn. Only go as high as you need to, otherwise your just wasting your fuel/money/horsepower

 

[GIL]

I have to take up for Matt on this one. I have tried AVGAS, Renegade 110, Sunoco 110, VP C12. VP 113, MS109 and the difference is amazing, unbelievable, and obviously for alot of you, impossible to grasp. I am at 200psi and 28* static on a 838 Lamey.

As for a near stk motor? It gave me the same wow factor in my wifes 03 SJ stk motor w/b pipe, ADA head w/35cc domes blowing 185psi and stk ignition w/stk advance. (It was a PITA getting her 38's to handle the fuel tho-took alot of tinkering with carbs.

For those that do not wish to believe-don't, it will leave more MS109 goodness in the world for Matt and I.

 

[Matt_E]

:bigok:

 

[Matt_E]

hy not use a oxy race fuel in a 180 comp lim boat,well there is more to it than the octane.... of course you cant have 110% octane, but you can have the equivalent. By using additives like Tetraethyle Lead, you increase its ability to withstand compression and higher ignition advance similar to that of 100 octane + 10% etc. They call it a performance rating.but if your boat is not using either you would see very little gain but spend alot of

I have a feeling it won't matter what the results will be of my trying MS109 in a lower compression setup. Your mind is made up (despite having zero experience actually trying it)?

 

[Cannibal]

Most testing reports are that it contains aprox 30% more oxy into the mixture,being composed of mostly nitropropane and that represents about a 5% increase in hp.oxygenates simply allow your motor to be a tad "bigger" since some of the "air" in the motor is carried by the fuel itself. When you have this, you can keep adding fuel so long as you can keep enough air in the cylinder to keep your A/F correct.

Wait, so MS109 has nitropropane in it? Can you link to a source on that info? I thought that the oxygen came from the MTBE? Even Klotz Nitro is a 50% blend of nitropropane and cooling agents that is $51/gal. I'm going to say that if there is nitropropane in MS109, it wouldn't exist in more than a 5% blend (probably only 1 or 2% in reality). Hot Rod's test report on this says that for every 1% you add nitropropane, you need to up your jets by 1 size (from 85 to 86). They blew and engine (lean) going up only 6 sizes using a 10% blend. Also, I know with nitromethane, when burnt, creates nitric acid, very bad for anything aluminum and rubber, and I think I've read that nitropropane is the same. It's not recommended to let it sit in anything for even a couple hours. I'd think that warning would be on the fuel if that were the case.

why not use a oxy race fuel in a 180 comp lim boat,well there is more to it than the octane.... of course you cant have 110% octane, but you can have the equivalent. By using additives like Tetraethyle Lead, you increase its ability to withstand compression and higher ignition advance similar to that of 100 octane + 10% etc

Well, yes this is correct, but doesn't mean octane ratings over 100 are lies. Octane of fuel is a comparison between iso-octane (octane rating of 100) and n-heptane (octane rating of 0). If a fuel has the same properties as a blend of 90% iso-octane and 10% n-heptane, it has a 90 octane rating. So yes, since you can't have more than 100% iso-octane in a container, you have no way to directly compare it. However, science has come a long way from a couple guys with some beakers and a test engine and since products do exist that exert higher anti-knock properties than 100% iso-octane, they can be given a higher octane rating based on scientific data, not a flat head Ford strapped to a table.

 

[masterblaster]

Im just goldsteining on gas right now,I dont even like paying 5 bucks a gallon for my 110 mix,it does allow me to run over 200 lbs and 30 deg so I deal with it,much safer than trying to run pump fuel but when the surf is good we ride alot,so paying triple or even double fuel costs is going to have to net alot more than 5% power.I wouldnt mind trying it sometime,but im not trying to change my jetting to do it,cause there is no way im using fuel that expensive all the time.how much are you looking at paying for a drum of it? the pricing I saw was totally ridiculous. In good surf weather we would burn a drum of that in no time

 

[McDog]

This has become very complicated and confusing. What I need to know is can I switch to MS109 from 50/50 avgas and 93pump without changing my carb tuning. My compression is 195.

 

[Matt_E]

Shane, that's almost exactly the switch I made. My motor runs 200psi.
I ran 3:2 100ll/91 octane pump.
I switched to 1:1 MS109/91 octane pump
On my 46 BlackJacks I turned out the low and high speed adjusters 1/8 of a turn. For more specifics for your motor, maybe call Art.

I don't think it's complicated or confusing at all. The switch was easy and the power gain tremendous.

 

[SUPERJET-113]

I know someone that races and uses MS109 it in their Seapoo 2 stroke racer and the jetting had to be increased from 135 main to a 137.5.

I don't think it's complicated or confusing at all. The switch was easy and the power gain tremendous.

But again your comparing Avgas/pump 50/50 mixture to MS109. How about comparing with a regular race fuel @50/50 mix. Avgas is crap. :nana:

 

[2XLR8]

I'm sure how the engine is built has some bearing on how much extra power you make and where you make it with the MS 109. More important and not seen as a horsepower gain is the rate of acceleration a fuel can have over another. This is more of a seat of the pants feel. What is funny is someone claims a good increase and there are others that quickly dispute or discredit it with opinions based on what they think and yet have no experience with it. People talk about percentages of horsepower gain and base this on deciding if it is worth the extra cost. The truth is the people who don't want to spend the extra cost will try to convince themselves that they don't need it. The truth is we don't have to all agree on everything. VP has oxygenated fuel that has a much lower octane rating for applications that dont require the extra octane.
MS 109 has been around for many years, looking at this thread it makes you think that it just came out .
If you have an engine built for less money and less displacement and use this fuel and make more hit and power than an engine costing you 3000.00 more is it really costing you more to run the engine with the MS 109. The more expensive engine that cost you more still needs to eat.
I don't have extra money to use this fuel but that does not mean I should discredit it.

 

[Dustin Mustangs]

Has anyone tried ms109e? It's listed under vp's watercraft section. Seems to be the same but with a slightly lower octane. Maybe a good option for those with pump gas level compression. Just speculating though...

MOTORSPORT 109E
In engines that can run on pump gas, MS 109E is a direct replacement that produces more power than any other unleaded fuel on the market—up to 5% more than premium unleaded. Recommended for higher boost applications with CRs up to 11:1 or naturally aspirated engines up to 13:1. Fuel of choice for champions and other top teams in IJSBA.

 

[masterblaster]

2xl,I have seen some very informative knowledgeable posts from you in the past,otherwise i wouldnt even respond. I assume your talking about rate of burn in this fuel,I dont see how any motor can accelerate faster and not have either more torque or hp on a dyno? Im primarily making these judgement calls on what I see in real #s on a dyno in the turbo car world.Myself and many friends build supras and attend meets all over the country,Myself or others Ive watched dyno cars with every kind of fuel there is,from oxy fuels to e85 to meth and water injected from 400 to 1300 hp. There are many posted results from using these kind of fuels and what they net in comparison. These are dyno and ET facts. Skis and seat of the pants meters are laughable in comparison?? Im not discrediting the oxy fuel just giving true #s for it to be realistic,It rippppsss is a little vague for that kinda $ Im sure it could be choosin in a blind test.......or smelled lol

You make a interesting case for building less motor and using this fuel to make up for the $ over time,I know some guys these kinda economics would make sense to and pay off.............razzzz. but no one in our core group would make out long on this plan.We ride more than we talk about it. not to mention being stuck with having to run mega $ fuel to make good power.

 

[Matt_E]

Torr, for what it's worth: I was really hoping that the MS109 would NOT make a difference. Because I wasn't very excited about paying that kind of money for fuel. I bought a 5gal mini drum hoping to be disappointed by what my motor would do with it.
Now I almost wish I had not tried it, because the power difference was so dramatic that it'll be a letdown to go back to my regular fuel.
My regular avgas mix costs me about $24 per 5 gal tank (oil included).
At regular MS109 retail price, that went up to about $44 per 5 gal tank. I don't ride as often as I used to, but still enough that $44/tank is too much for me. Since last November, I have burned about 200 gallons of fuel.
If I can get preferred pricing on a 54gal drum of MS109, I can get that down to $34/tank. That's more reasonable and I would be willing to pay that.

 

[Cannibal]

At regular MS109 retail price, that went up to about $44 per 5 gal tank. I don't ride as often as I used to, but still enough that $44/tank is too much for me.

:shocked: $44/tank at a 50/50 mix with pump gas. Ouch. So that stuff is like $14/gal?

Maybe delete this thread and find some really good drugs and try to forget the last few days?

 

[SUPERJET-113]

Torr, for what it's worth: I was really hoping that the MS109 would NOT make a difference. Because I wasn't very excited about paying that kind of money for fuel. I bought a 5gal mini drum hoping to be disappointed by what my motor would do with it.
Now I almost wish I had not tried it, because the power difference was so dramatic that it'll be a letdown to go back to my regular fuel.
My regular avgas mix costs me about $24 per 5 gal tank (oil included).
At regular MS109 retail price, that went up to about $44 per 5 gal tank. I don't ride as often as I used to, but still enough that $44/tank is too much for me. Since last November, I have burned about 200 gallons of fuel.
If I can get preferred pricing on a 54gal drum of MS109, I can get that down to $34/tank. That's more reasonable and I would be willing to pay that.

Sounds to me like you need to just get some good race fuel and mix 50/50 and ditch the Avgas altogether. That will yield you more power( maybe not as much a MS109) and youll probably spend the same or less. That is if you bought a 55 drum.

 

[GIL]

I cannot comprehend what I am reading.

Matt, now you know why I don't post much about my experience with Jetworks greatness and everything that Jetworks reccomends. Remember my BlackJack thread and how derailed that thread got? Long story short is alot of people here are
totally satisfied with mediocre performance and therefore need to know nothing about the very best there is!!!
Gil Williams

 

[masterblaster]

Matt..At least your getting results with mixing it 50/50 if you had to run it 100% the price is totally ta ta. I suppose certain days it might be worth a extra 10 bucks a tank to run it depending on how much you were riding that day. As above id suggest trying sunoco 110 or cam2 same precise fuel just relabeled for sale elsewhere and mix it 50/50 with 93 pump just for a comparison to ms109. this can be done for $24 a tank and net over 100 oct. its super convenient for me at the pump I can pump it straight into my skis at about $6 a gallon,Im sure its cheaper by the drum,I just hate dealing with storing drums,pumping from them or dealing with gas cans to save a few bucks if it were 50% cheaper this way Id do it.easy and semi cheap is a winner to me.I also set both my strokers up to run in surf on straight pump if I have too,flat water 50/50 is more crucial

Gill.... Ive learned enough has to be enough at some point,especially for surf,my motors rip way harder than your average big bore surf motor with 93 oct.Its even worse with turbo supras,once you get use to a 600 horsepower car and think you need more,you will find that you are never happy with any level of power and always want more.this is a escalating factor and so is the cost,power vs cost has to make sense to me.You have to ask yourself,what is this car/ski being used for at this power level and will I ever be truly happy with it?Its a far more slippery slope with the sup but im done at 600 even though some buds feel like they just have to push 1300 to be cool.I still blow away 95% of anything on the road at this price level,to beat that last 5% of beast cars id have to spend another 15g,it isnt worth it to me,very sim with the ski

 

[Cliff]

i know damn well that i have been telling your ass for over a year that avgas wasnt where its at. you was running it because you could get it cheap.

 

[2XLR8]

Some people use part av gas because they have their set up right at the edge of needing more octane but they want to use pump fuel. They use a bit of av gas to keep things safe. Detuning the engine to run on pump fuel only will result in less power so in a sense running av gas does give you more power because of how the engine is set up
If you are using straight av gas that is where a good race fuel will make more power assuming the engine was built to run straight av gas. I have seen this many times on two strokes specially on banshees.
If it made that noticeable of a difference for someone riding in the northwest, imagine what it does for the people in the south where it is wickedly humid.