does resin go bad??

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wydopen

Guest
well i removed the nose bumper on my square to returf the rails and noticed some descent cracks in the nose..

so i sanded her and repaired her using some resin i had in my parents gargage for a long time...

it was about 80 degrees when i started but overnight it really cooled down...

i only used one ounce and the ratio was 24 drops for 60-65 degrees and 18 for 65 to 90...

i used 21 drops and figured it woold be good cause it was cooling down....

anyways that was at 6pm last night and i just called my g/f to check it and its still wet...

she described it as not even tacky..

will catalyst go bad???..

it probally 10 years old...

i didnt even think about it till now...

t was a brand new bottle it had just been sitting for a while.. this happen to anyone else...id really rather not remove all the work i did and start over..i guess ill put some heat on it when i get home
 

meatball

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Location
Maryland
epoxy does have a shelf life. That said, its pretty long, but 10 years is really pushing it.

Is it really humid there? That may have an effect, especially on dry time. There are specially formulated hardeners for especially humid environments.
 

meatball

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Location
Maryland
It tells you to alter the ratio to the temperature as well? I find that quite interesting, as most epoxies say not to do that, and to buy fast/slow/medium etc. for you temp and predicted pot life. Try mixing up a batch in a dixie cup (max hardener ratio) and see if it dries. If it is working at all, the closeness of space in a dixie cup will magnify any heat it should produce and help it dry quicker.
 
W

wydopen

Guest
It tells you to alter the ratio to the temperature as well? I find that quite interesting, as most epoxies say not to do that, and to buy fast/slow/medium etc. for you temp and predicted pot life. Try mixing up a batch in a dixie cup (max hardener ratio) and see if it dries. If it is working at all, the closeness of space in a dixie cup will magnify any heat it should produce and help it dry quicker.

i thought it was polyester...i wasnt really worried about it being strong..its not cracked all the way through i just wanted to put something on top of it
 
W

wydopen

Guest
epoxy does have a shelf life. That said, its pretty long, but 10 years is really pushing it.

Is it really humid there? That may have an effect, especially on dry time. There are specially formulated hardeners for especially humid environments.

well it was bone dry yesterday but its super foggy today...thats santa barbara for you
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
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Okay. AFAIK, everything I have seen & read indicates that Epoxy resin does not employ variable mix rates to get variable cure rates. The resin to hardener ratio is fixed to form a stable matrix. That's why an accurate ratio mixing is important for proper strength.

I have had resin not cure for several days due to low temperatures. Put a heat light on it and see what happens.
I can usually get even medium cure hardener-epoxy to cure within an hour with a heat light.
 
W

wydopen

Guest
Okay. AFAIK, everything I have seen & read indicates that Epoxy resin does not employ variable mix rates to get variable cure rates. The resin to hardener ratio is fixed to form a stable matrix. That's why an accurate ratio mixing is important for proper strength.

I have had resin not cure for several days due to low temperatures. Put a heat light on it and see what happens.
I can usually get even medium cure hardener-epoxy to cure within an hour with a heat light.

cool thanks...
 

meatball

User Title Unavailable
Location
Maryland
Pretty sure polyester resin is similiar...

In any case though, just so you know, adding resin adds no strength at all, only cosmetic. Resins are brittle, its the glass and carbon you dry them on that makes it strong. Dont put just resin on the cracks, dremel the cracks into a V then fill them, it prevents them from extending further and provides more for the resin to grab onto. A little filler wouldnt hurt either.
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
I just did some reading. The resin has infinite shelf life, but the hardener (MAS Hardeners, in this case) have about 1 yr shelf life in a closed container. I am not sure what you are using. MAS hardeners (I am using those products now) are phenol free, as is West Systems)

here's some good cure info:

Customizing Cure Times- the blending of Slow and Fast Hardeners. The time it takes for an epoxy mixture to change from liquid to solid is the cure time. There are four phases:

* Open (working) time or wet lay-up time.
* The mixture is still liquefied.
* Initial cure is reached when the mixture has turned to gel.
* Final cure is when the epoxy is now solid.

The speed and the length of these phases and total cure time varies relative to temperature and which hardener was used - slow or fast or combination of both - and if additives have been added to the mixture. Cure times can be speeded or slowed depending on your needed application by the combining of the Fast and Slow hardeners. Cure times for the Fast hardener, combined with the low viscosity Epoxy resin can be lengthened by the addition of 35-40% by volume of the Slow hardener. This happens because the Slow generally has a lower peak exotherm temperature and the Slow molecules are bulkier, which slows down the whole chemical reaction between the resin and hardener. The Slow hardener can be speeded up by the addition of Fast hardener, however, it is important that the amount of Fast does not exceed 30% by volume. Adding over 30% of the Fast compromises the "no-blush" characteristics on the Slow. The mix ratio between the resin and hardener still continues to be 2:1 resin : hardener. NOTE - - The cure times are not directly proportional to the amount of hardener used to customize the blend. For example, if 25% Fast is added to Slow, the cure time is speeded by 12-15 %. Conversely, if 50% of Slow is added to Fast, the cure time is slowed down by 25%.

The above ratios should get you in the curing ball park of a perfect shop/lab which warms and cools by increments of 18° F (see above). However, using both temperature variation and blending ratios which favor the "hot" side to manipulate a pot life, will probably get you close to your desired cure speed.

Even if the pot life and thin film set of your first hybrid mix does not fall right on the money, the mix will cure as long as the resin to catalyst ratio is 2:1 and temperatures are not severely cold. We have been working with Hybrid blends of Slow and Fast and the following ratios are the most popular for the listed common conditions:

Coating and Encapsulate: If temperatures are slightly cool (50-60°), we recommend speeding up Slow with approximately 20% of Fast. This still provides a blush free coating (but do check), and is normally sandable in the morning (remember, always mix resin and catalyst in a 2:1 ratio, mix thoroughly).

Filleting and Bonding: Normally, since users are looking for maximum strength and minimum clamp time, we recommend 100% Fast. However, if the weather gets hot (over 85°), this mix can be controlled by adding approximately 25% Slow. (Remember always mix resin and catalyst in a 2:1 ratio, mix thoroughly).

19. Controlling Cure Time through mixed Quantity, Container Shape and Temperature

Mixed Quantity - A larger quantity of mixed epoxy will create more heat and have a shorter open (working) time and overall cure time. Smaller batches of epoxy create less heat than larger batches and also have longer working and cure times. In other words, a thicker layer of epoxy will cure sooner than a thin layer.

Container Shape - The mixture's heat can be distributed by pouring the mixture into a larger, flatter container (like a roller pan, for example.) This also extends the open time.

Temperature - Heat can be applied or removed from the epoxy to shorten or extend open and cure times. After the epoxy is applied, a fan can be used to draw heat from the lay-up or application and extend the epoxy's open time. Moderate heat (an industrial hot air gun, hair dryer or heat lamp) applied to the lay-up or to the resin and hardener before mixing, will shorten the epoxy's cure time.
 
W

wydopen

Guest
dont worry i used cloth as well :biggthumpup: thanks for the research matt....am i wasting my time with the polyester?...i sanded it up all good, widened up the cracks and used some cloth...it looked like it would add some integrity to me...once agian my nose wasnt broken off or anything just trying to do some preventative maintence

Pretty sure polyester resin is similiar...

In any case though, just so you know, adding resin adds no strength at all, only cosmetic. Resins are brittle, its the glass and carbon you dry them on that makes it strong. Dont put just resin on the cracks, dremel the cracks into a V then fill them, it prevents them from extending further and provides more for the resin to grab onto. A little filler wouldnt hurt either.
 
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Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
First of all, putting polyester resin on a square is a waste of time (and resin), unfortunately. That type resin will not bond well with the SMC/metton that the hull is made of.
You need to use epoxy resin.
I would fix cracks like that in the following matter: Grind a V shape into the crack.
Drill a hole into the end of each crack (to prevent spreading).
Rough up the inside of the hull, clean it.
Use glass & resin on the inside, a couple or three layers.
Use thickened epoxy on the outside to fill the crack.
 
W

wydopen

Guest
i thought just the bottom was smc..:banghead: ..shows what i know..well i guess ill start over then

First of all, putting polyester resin on a square is a waste of time (and resin), unfortunately. That type resin will not bond well with the SMC/metton that the hull is made of.
You need to use epoxy resin.
I would fix cracks like that in the following matter: Grind a V shape into the crack.
Drill a hole into the end of each crack (to prevent spreading).
Rough up the inside of the hull, clean it.
Use glass & resin on the inside, a couple or three layers.
Use thickened epoxy on the outside to fill the crack.
 

Matt_E

steals hub caps from cars
Site Supporter
Location
at peace
The bottom is SMC. The top is metton. Maybe it works with polyester - I don't know for sure. Run in for a while and see what happens.
 
W

wydopen

Guest
yea ill give it a shot..as long as i keep my nose out of the sand i should be fine...thanks for the tips...shes gonna get torn down and painted before too long so i guess ill fix it right then

The bottom is SMC. The top is metton. Maybe it works with polyester - I don't know for sure. Run in for a while and see what happens.
 
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