Super Jet Backfire on start up, EPIC?

[gtoking1972]

I have had same exact EPIC induced backfire/start problem on mine since building my ski. EVERYTHING electrical on my ski was BRAND NEW OEM. I threw a stocker CDI in and the problem went away instantly. I also know of a few other people with same issue who dont post on here.....

Thanks for the post shawn_NJ. Do you have any idea how many people you are talking about so I can get an idea on how many to add to the total?

 

[shawn_NJ]

Thanks for the post shawn_NJ. Do you have any idea how many people you are talking about so I can get an idea on how many to add to the total?

Two other skis that I have seen the issue with myself.

 

[gtoking1972]

Two other skis that I have seen the issue with myself.

Awesome thanks again! If you come across anyone else please point them to this thread. Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[shawn_NJ]

Glad you're having luck with the old version and the new, but with all due respect that's not what this is about. This is about those having problems. I think we all know theres a ton of good ones out there. And we also understand the risk of aftermarket parts such as MSD Enhancers and even the Epic. Considering the price of these units, I have a hard time paying for a new one with very little time in the market.... Not to mention the continued troubles with this one.

So, the question remains....is this issue being worked on still or is this just dead in the water since the HX3 is out? This boat is in my garage now so I can replace the seals again... And I'd like to know if I need to rip out the ebox and the epic.

Sadly all of us with defective old units are pretty much told to pound sand, and buy a new one.

 

[OCD Solutions]

Where this gets tricky is that the units themselves are not faulty. They are sensitive to something random and simply do not work in some ski's. I agree that it is frustrating but why should a manufacturer have to replace units that will function perfectly in the majority of ski's? I would argue with you guys that it would be a smart business move but sometimes the numbers just aren't there to support such action.

It sure would be nice to isolate out the random factor and identify the source for the conflict so that all the original units can be of value still.

 

[FlightRisk]

Where this gets tricky is that the units themselves are not faulty. They are sensitive to something random and simply do not work in some ski's. I agree that it is frustrating but why should a manufacturer have to replace units that will function perfectly in the majority of ski's?.

Because ATP didn't fork over the hard earned money for a functional unit..... I did. That's what customer service is about. The unit may function properly in other skis.... Great. Tell me why or resolve the issue.

it would be great to find a solution.. I agree this would be optimal.

 

[OCD Solutions]

I bet they are just as frustrated with this as we are. And they have a lot more than $400 invested in this.

I know they did a ton of investigation on this and I would love to see their notes. I do advanced electrical troubleshooting in manufacturing so my mind is always running diagnostics and looking for solutions. Fortunately my EPIC is functioning but unfortunately, that leaves me with nothing to troubleshoot. Before ScottS's got toasted, I was going to set up a test station with a complete electrical system including a servo to spin the flywheel up to 8000 RPM and start playing with components. Maybe someday someone will donate a troubled unit for me to play with. Of course I would need the entire electrical system as well so that's not likely to happen.

 

[shawn_NJ]

Where this gets tricky is that the units themselves are not faulty. They are sensitive to something random and simply do not work in some ski's. I agree that it is frustrating but why should a manufacturer have to replace units that will function perfectly in the majority of ski's? I would argue with you guys that it would be a smart business move but sometimes the numbers just aren't there to support such action.

It sure would be nice to isolate out the random factor and identify the source for the conflict so that all the original units can be of value still.

Boyer I agree with you mostly, this rant is not directed at you.

Bottom line is that a number of riders are out HUNDREDS of dollars on these cdi units, that we cannot use. At Daytona I heard from people who have had damage to there starters and bendix's from the backfires. Its was not just two or three people out there who have had backfires, it is a real issue. I brought this up in the past and was told it 100% was not the epic, everyone blamed my 2 brand new agm batteries, and everything else on my ski's 100% BRAND NEW electric system. Well removing the EPIC fixed my backfire problem..... And I am going to take that the Version2 epic having "considerable hardware changes" in the starting system, that the original epic backfiring was not a one off event.

the first is that the way the Epic starts your engine has been changed significantly involving considerable hardware changes.

I do not start drama threads, or come here to trash talk companies. But the only instructions to get our v1 CDIs fixed, is to pay +$450 on the version2 units. No discounted trade in, or any offer was made on a known issue/well documented problem product. It is what it is, but I do not want these guys being told what I was a year or two ago. This IS a well documented problem. Odds are if you are having backfires while cranking on your V1 epic CDI, it is the EPIC CDI causing the backfires. Best way to troubleshoot is to install a stocker cdi or MSD. If the problem goes away.... guess where the issue is?

 

[OCD Solutions]

I agree with every point Shawn and wish there was a better solution/answer.

 

[jetski700]

Remember there was no issues at all with the epics so people went around replacing stators etc at great cost on there skis and even now there still hasnt been an admission that there was a problem. When the new one starts playing up are we going to go through all the same issue again and just be more out of pocket. Whats the chance of getting warranty from the 2nd one if there was none on the other one. This has left a bad taste with more than a few people.

 

[gtoking1972]

Shawn I also agree with you 100%. The biggest thing I have a hard time comprehending is if software changes were made to the HX3 regarding how your engine is started via a new program, why cant these changes be made to V1 with an update or flash? "From what I understand, the electronics were completely redesigned with a new starting program and circuit".

Just to reiterate again, this thread is not meant to bash ATP and I don't want to go down that road but I would like to understand what the program differences are and why they cannot be applied to the V1. This does not sit well with me because I work for a computer software company that pushes out upgrades and flashes for our software constantly to fix bugs and problems to keep the customer happy as well as make sure the system is running to its ultimate capacity. Is ATP at the cross road where sinking money into the V1 software not profitable anymore and the solution was to come up with a fresh new starting program where as fixing the V1 program would involve a significant amount of time and money or is their limitations with the existing hardware within the V1 that cannot be fixed with a program update?

Also, something that may help the cause is posting what setup you were running in your boat and having problems with so I can keep track try and possibly find a common denominator.

 

[OCD Solutions]

Hardware is a physical entity. You can't replace a capacitor with a software update.

I have always suspected that it was a weak or nonexistent power filter circuit myself. Any harmonics or noise at all and it scrambles the brain. Since "noise" can come from many different sources, it could be a nightmare to trace and could be different on every ski. If that is the case then a total redesign would be necessary.

 

[gtoking1972]

Hardware is a physical entity. You can't replace a capacitor with a software update.

Correct. That was poorly worded on my part and fixed. I was more referring to new starting program that was quoted and why that cannot be applied toward the V1, is their current limitations on existing hardware within the original version?

 

[shawn_NJ]

Shawn I also agree with you 100%. The biggest thing I have a hard time comprehending is if software changes were made to the HX3 regarding how your engine is started via a new program, why cant these changes be made to V1 with an update or flash? "From what I understand, the electronics were completely redesigned with a new starting program and circuit".

Just to reiterate again, this thread is not meant to bash ATP and I don't want to go down that road but I would like to understand what the program differences are and why they cannot be applied to the V1. This does not sit well with me because I work for a computer software company that pushes out upgrades and flashes for our software constantly to fix bugs and problems to keep the customer happy as well as make sure the system is running to its ultimate capacity. Is ATP at the cross road where sinking money into the V1 software not profitable anymore and the solution was to come up with a fresh new starting program where as fixing the V1 program would involve a significant amount of time and money or is their limitations with the existing hardware within the V1 that cannot be fixed with a program update?

Also, something that may help the cause is posting what setup you were running in your boat and having problems with so I can keep track try and possibly find a common denominator.

It still does not help any of us with old CDIs that we cannot use.....but I am positive IF ATP could have written a firmware flash that fixed the old units for us, they would have. From everything posted about the new EPIC, it appears that the units componants that handle the starting were physically upgraded requiring a new unit.

EDIT:
As far as common denominator, I started with out of the box brand new OEM everything. Stator, coil, voltage reg, start/stop, every wire, ect.....everything was brand new. Even bought an extra brand new high dollar full sized AGM to test with, as alot of people on here blamed my battery. No difference. It seems to be a completely random thing. Options really are only to risk damage to you starter, bendix, and case/cover bushings...or just get rid of the old EPIC and run an MSD or oem CDI.

 

[OCD Solutions]

The only thing we can really do now is to find a way to make them work. I wanted to test a small power filter. We had them at my last job but I never snagged one for testing. I'll see if I can track a part number down for someone to try.

 

[FlightRisk]

This is a great discussion. It's nice to see some good conversation without people loosing their cool.

I'm a firm believer in the fact you should get what you pay for. I'm on a strict budget, at the time I built this motor I wanted the BEST ignition I could get, the EPIC was my first choice. But this has cost many many man hours, tear downs and rebuilds trying to identify/repair after these issues....this ends up way outside the budget margins.

 

[special fx]

When I first installed my EPIC it would not start at all. It seemed to fire randomly and out of time. Prior to installing the EPIC the ski ran perfect and the coil was new (maybe 3 tanks old). If I put the stock CDI back in, it would fire right up and run perfectly. I spoke to Chris about this and he recommended I replace the coil. This was hard to swallow since it was a brand new and proven good coil. I decided to follow the recommendation and replaced it with another good used coil I had and it fired right up and has run flawlessly since that day (2 years now).

Although the coil worked fine with stock CDI, it had an issue with noise that affected the EPIC. That's not to say it was bad, or the EPIC was bad....they just didn't play well together. The original EPIC is certainly dependant on having a premium set of OEM counterparts. In all fairness, we're lucky anyone bothers to make stuff for our sport where such small numbers of untis can be expected to sell. The reward vs effort is very low for our supporting vendors.

 

[FlightRisk]

When I first installed my EPIC it would not start at all. It seemed to fire randomly and out of time. Prior to installing the EPIC the ski ran perfect and the coil was new (maybe 3 tanks old). If I put the stock CDI back in, it would fire right up and run perfectly. I spoke to Chris about this and he recommended I replace the coil. This was hard to swallow since it was a brand new and proven good coil. I decided to follow the recommendation and replaced it with another good used coil I had and it fired right up and has run flawlessly since that day (2 years now).

Although the coil worked fine with stock CDI, it had an issue with noise that affected the EPIC. That's not to say it was bad, or the EPIC was bad....they just didn't play well together. The original EPIC is certainly dependant on having a premium set of OEM counterparts. In all fairness, we're lucky anyone bothers to make stuff for our sport where such small numbers of untis can be expected to sell. The reward vs effort is very low for our supporting vendors.

Anyone else have success with this coil swap? Anyone not have success with a coil swap? I agree we are lucky to have people make aftermarket parts, but they should perform.

 

[jetski700]

Anyone else have success with this coil swap? Anyone not have success with a coil swap? I agree we are lucky to have people make aftermarket parts, but they should perform.

We are lucky ? Come on these it how they make their living. While it's awesome to have these parts lets not forget they are doing it to make money as well the responsibility lies with them to actually produce a working part. Then knew the product they working making the part for. The most annoying thing I find is that they never admitted it was an issue just let you spend and spend on stators and coils until you gave up.Its like they were just looking for ways to get out of the warranty on them

 

[FlightRisk]

We are lucky ? Come on these it how they make their living. While it's awesome to have these parts lets not forget they are doing it to make money as well the responsibility lies with them to actually produce a working part. Then knew the product they working making the part for. The most annoying thing I find is that they never admitted it was an issue just let you spend and spend on stators and coils until you gave up. They were just looking for ways to get out of the warranty on them

We are lucky that someone has the ability to develop/produce products for such a limited market, and like I said before they should perform.