MS109 Goodness

Matt_E

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just seems like alot more to pay for min gains
The gains I saw on my motor were far from minimal. Better throttle response, much better acceleration throughout the entire RPM range, PLUS higher RPM at any given throttle position.

Is the Sunoco all you tried, or have you given MS109 also a shot?
 
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Matt_E

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wow that link does absolutely no good! doesnt tell you where a local vp station is. gives you numbers for distributers that dont know anything. called vp west and they said they dont know anything and gave me the number for my local distrubiter, van de pol enterprises. i called and they transferred me to about 4 diff people who knew nothing and said "i dont know why they would transfer you to me?"


Maybe I got lucky with the local distributor. About 10 miles from my house.
 

Dustin Mustangs

uʍop ǝpıs dn
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Holland, MI
I had no luck either. One number they gave me was an excavating company (really?) that didn't answer and the other one was a private cell phone with no answer and a full mailbox. I guess I'll try again later but it's not looking good by me.
 
what if I run the 109 with 185 compression on a limited 701

you would both be wasting your $ unless you were running tl with a chit ton of advance,even then gains would be minimal

No I have never run oxy fuel,because statistically gains are published around 5% while pricing is more than 100% my current fuel setup that already allows for over 200lbs comp and 30 deg advance. Seat of the pants gains are tough to get a analysis while dyno and 1/4 times tell a more revealing story of oxy fuels.If you need just that tiny bit of a edge to win its worth it,but truly in most cases this type of fuel is illegal in most racing types,thats why its such a low seller for race fuel manufactures,cost vs performance and uses.
 

Matt_E

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No I have never run oxy fuel,
you would both be wasting your $ unless you were running tl with a chit ton of advance,even then gains would be minimal
How can you make that statement if you haven't actually tried it?
You're absolutely right that "seat of the pants" feel isn't very accurate. But it's a heck of a lot more accurate than making blanket statements about something you have zero actual experience with.

Couple buddies of mine are putting together 180psi rec motors. We'll compare standard gas vs MS109 mix back to back and report on it.
 
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the same way I dont have to shoot myself in the foot to know it hurts....lol
I get what you are saying,im sure it makes some kind of a diff for you at the level you have your motor built to as long as its worth the extra $ for the amount of time and gallons you run through your ski,but running this kinda fuel in a motor with pump gas comp and timing is a complete waste no mater how you meter it.
 

SUPERJET-113

GASKETS FOR CHAMP BRAP!
Ya, but Matt you went from Avgas 100LL mixed 50/50 with pump gas to comparing that to the MS109 right?
I dont think that is a very good comparison. But obviously you could feel the difference in power.

I would like to do a back to back test using MS109 vs. the Sunoco 110 or VP105 I can get from the pump a couple miles away. For some people Avgas may be the only alternative to some higher octane fuel. A 50/50 mix with pump and Avgas is better than blowing up a motor, thats for sure.

About Avgas and PWC from GroupK:

"Aviation gasoline (or "av gas") is blended specifically for use in small aircraft. It's also commonly used by many high performance engine owners because of it's high stated octane rating (usually 100-110) and the relatively low price compared to racing fuel. Unfortunately this fuel is not all it appears to be. Av gas octane is rated on a different scale than gasolines intended for ground level use. What is 100 octane "av", is not necessarily 100 octane "ground level". Besides this, there is also a big chemical difference. Normal ground level race fuels are made up of gas molecules that have a "light end" and a "heavy end". The light end of the molecule ignites easily and burns quickly with a low temperature flame (as a piece of thin newspaper would burn). The heavy end of the molecule is not so easily ignited, but it burns with a much more intense heat (as an oak log would). This heavy end of the gasoline molecule is responsible for the hotter, more powerful part of the combustion process.

Small aircraft are constructed as very weight conscious vehicles. That's because their somewhat weak engines often have difficulty taking off with any extra weight. To help reduce this weight problem, av gasolines are blended with no heavy molecule end. This makes a gallon of av gas weigh substantially less than a gallon of ground level fuel. Since small plane engines turn very low rpms and produce so little power, the omission of the heavy end is not a horsepower issue. However, for high output pwc racing engines, there is defiantly a compromise in power. This, despite the fact that many pwc owners experience the desirable cooler operating temperatures that "av" gas offers. In addition, some blends of av gas will quickly separate from some oils used in premix situations. For the above reasons, we do not recommend the ongoing use of 100% av gas, and we will not prepare any "av gas" engine kits. Despite all this bad news, running av gas (accepting the slight power loss) is usually a better choice than
burning down a high output engine on regular pump gas. In this situation, the best choice is usually a 50/50 mix of pump and av gas. That provides "some" heavy molecule ends for the engine. "
 

Matt_E

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Ya, but Matt you went from Avgas 100LL mixed 50/50 with pump gas to comparing that to the MS109 right?
I dont think that is a very good comparison. But obviously you could feel the difference in power.

Good point. I can't run mine on straight pump gas.
However, we'll try it out with pump gas motors to hopefully settle the issue.
Unless minds are made up beforehand, then any amount of evidence is inconsequential. :biggrin:
 

Cannibal

Tasty Human
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Summit Lake, WA
Generally speaking the higher the mon the higher the octane the lower the btu,more specifically the types of fuel mixed to create the octane reflect btu.

Yes, this is correct. Most (if not all) racing fuels have a higher concentration of things like toluene, xylene, and benzene which all have a higher octane, but lower BTU.

Couple buddies of mine are putting together 180psi rec motors. We'll compare standard gas vs MS109 mix back to back and report on it.

I'd love to hear those results

Besides this, there is also a big chemical difference. Normal ground level race fuels are made up of gas molecules that have a "light end" and a "heavy end". The light end of the molecule ignites easily and burns quickly with a low temperature flame (as a piece of thin newspaper would burn). The heavy end of the molecule is not so easily ignited, but it burns with a much more intense heat (as an oak log would). This heavy end of the gasoline molecule is responsible for the hotter, more powerful part of the combustion process.

I will agree that this may in fact be true. Distillation columns have many take-off points to collect certain products during the process. The lighter stuff boils first and travels farther up the column, so yes, it is probable that AvGas is comprised of more light ends than heavy ends. What the effect this has on how the fuel reacts in an internal combustion engine, I'm not sure.
 

Cannibal

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Summit Lake, WA
Bring some and I will try a 50/50 mix at the GO in my 190psi full limited setup.

Well if he's giving the stuff away, I'll take some too :biggrin:

I can bring a little methanol if anyone wants to try as well. Might have to fatten it up a bit though. Methanol likes 6.0:1 A/F ratio compared to gasoline's stoichiometric 14.7:1.
 

Cannibal

Tasty Human
Location
Summit Lake, WA
I checked our local place, all they carry is Turbo Blue 104, 110, 112, and 116. No VP at all. Any clue what percent/wt of oxygen the MS109 has? I can't find anything.
 
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