full spectrum carbs and popoff

talked to ed a good while ago about these carbs,He seems to use a very small 1.8 n&s and pretty high pop off around 24. I find they hit very hard like this,"light switch" but have a muddy spot around 1/4 to 1/3 throttle if your cruising or accelerating at any thing less than wot. Has anyone tried tuning this carb with diff pop offs and a larger n&s with larger pilots?
It seems to me that most his jetting info tends to lead straight back to racing,if you research jetting in these carbs almost everyone is using the same jetting today in these,and the same jetting was used back in the day for racing.Makes me wonder if any r&d has ever been done on these for a diff type riding with constant on off throttle. Something with the booster makes it where you cant run the high speed adjuster past 1/2 open,I forgot what he said,skipping a metering circuit or something? It just makes me wonder,most all A/m carb tuners run 2.3 or 2.5 n&s,has anyone tried this with full specs to get a little more seamless metering and maybe a little more linear hit out of them?
 

Flash-FX

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I see you didn't get them working right yet. I tried a larger n&s and larger L/S jets in mine....it made it worse (that muddy spot). The 24-25 psi pop-off seems to be the area where they work best. :deadhorse:
 

Pablo

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I had a horrible experience trying to tune my brand new full spec last summer. I spoke with Ed and many others trying to get my setup correct. I used all sizes of needles (1.5 - 2.5) and jets and couldn't come up with the correct combo. To Ed's and FS's defense I was trying to get a single 49/ATP mani to perform on 62t cases. I couldn't even get the light switch effect. It was "muddy" everywhere. That carb was prolly to large for my setup, but that said...I never got even close to the performance I expected out of it.
 
flash, Lets put it this way,I got them to work as good as they are going to apparently. Im happy with them overall,the ski hits super hard,I just dont think they are designed for cruise speeds.Ed uses all kinds of flow bench crazy stuff for precise airflow and such,I assume all this testing and setup is for wot race flow.As this is what they were primarily designed for. coming from you this makes me not even wana try larger seats in them,as you deff know what you are doing with carbs. although I recently bought another set of used full spec 46s from back in the day,they came with 2.5 n&s 95 gram and 122 p 140 m so im interested to see how these compare.

pablo..Idok has that same setup working very nice and linear on a atp mani with a pv ts motor.that 49 is actually about 46 around the booster.what kinda jetting and pop off where you trying,did you ever get it decent? still using it?
 
WOW . I,ve always wanted a new set of carbs but I think Ill stay with my sbn 44's .... perfect from top to bottom , never need ''retuned ''once i dialed it in ,nothing muddy and not even a flatspot on a BB mod motor . I guess mikuni does know what their doing !
 
Its like a sacrificial jetting,they hit hard as crap out of the hole with this pop off and pilot at wot,but in just a cruise off the line up to 1/3 throttle its hard to meter that same amount of fuel cleanly and seamlessly. I can promise you those 44s are not capable of this type of power these carbs can support.

wb800,I have a set of gen 2 novis as well,that I have not tried on this motor,I may do that just to see what happens,the port timing on this motor may have something to do with it as well,we will see
 

Pablo

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I ran that 49 FS all summer on the ATP. I sold both at end of season. I ended up settling on a 2.0 N/S and jetting was all over the map...I'll have to check my notes on what I finally used. I'm carb retarded, for sure, but when I do it over again I'll find Art's # and get hold of some blackjacks. I've yet to hear any complaints.
 
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Flash-FX

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Observations....

Reading all published material about tuning the Mikuni carburetor, (the mikuni "bible manual", Group K's carb tuning guides, ect...) will give you a good insight for tuning stock/lightly modified motors. Using those guides and having some understanding of how they work, it's a piece of cake. BUT, once you modify (Big Bore, epoxy cases, install pipes...ect) your motor, the likelihood of making the engine have a continuous and seamless powerband goes out the window. Sure you can make them idle perfect, and have a mid to top end kick a$$, but the transition 1/8th to 1/3rd range will suffer...just like mentioned above. Will the modified motor in your boat allow it to "cruise" smoothly at 1/8 to 1/3 throttle without 4 stroking or loading up? Probably not.


The scoop, is the best...1?... 1 into 2?...or just 2?


61X motors are easier to tune with the single 44mm carb (they were designed for it). Going to a larger (46+mm) carb will give you a little better mid to top end power, but the low end will suffer. A 12 to 15 psi pop-off is where you will be with a modified 61x with a 46+mm, and a soft bottom end power. You will have to run a low pitch impeller to break through that "lean dead zone". You will consume more fuel than a good "tuned" motor. Bottom line, it will run better in that 1/8th to 1/3 area than the 62T single kit.


62T motors with the stock 38mm carbs (stock platform). I never messed with them. Of the 2 newer Superjets I ever rode, they seemed to have real smooth power. They need to pass strict emissions and the carbs have good all around metering. If you look at the tail pipe on that stock boat, there will be no BLACK, unburned spewmen dripping out.


62T motors with the single carb kits, need low pop off pressures, want to starve for fuel in the beginning (because of a poor inlet signal), then run OK up top. (because of the lower manifold pressures created by increased volume of the 2 into 1 manifold). Some of the 4 transition holes need to be bigger to let in more fuel when it is needed. There again, a 12+ psi (low) pop-off and large pilot jet is needed to make it not starve off the line. Then the metering becomes too rich?? WTF! Use a low pitch prop here again, but this time it's to get through the rich zone. Get your jet and spring kits out...Spend LOTS Of time tuning...you will become a expert removing that carb. You might get it to run OK...but, You will probably ditch the package like I did. Perhaps it would be cool in the stock platform. Bottom line, the weaker inlet signal will cause you to chase your tail.


62T performance motors that have 2, 46/48mm or larger carbs. These motors create very high manifold pressures (real good signal), more than what Mikuni had designed the low speed metering for. Those 4 little holes (not picking on which one), lets in too much fuel (in relation to the butterfly opening) and create a rich condition where you don't need it. Just the opposite of the other 2 problem conditions mentioned above. A 24 to 25 psi pop-off is what these setups seem to like. Bottom line here, Don't ride in that area of operation, idle then wide open. And be sure not to over prop it.


The finger gets pointed at....Those 4 little holes.


Basically, we have to deal with a low speed metering circut that is predetermined by Mikuni (their drilling). And it's all supposed to be "infinitely" adjusted by a pilot jet? (and a magic wand?) It's really impossible to do correctly. Those 4 little holes can't possibly provide precise metering to every different combination of motor that's out there. I think we need some kind of a update here.


Now, do you think that "off the shelf" performance carb/manifold package for $2000.00 bux is going to drop on your "motor" and run perfectly seamless like fuel injection? guess again, it most likely will run like crap, somewhere in that power range and you will spend lots of time TRYING to make things smooth out. And once you get that area right, there will be a problem growing somewhere else.


OK,I'm not saying anything about the motor builder(s) that prepare a tried and tested package for you that is dialed in and works. They spent countless hours refining this mess for you, so it works (disclaimer). Unfortunately, I had to learn all this the hard way....$$.......$..............


What we all need is a better carburetor with a adjustable transition circut (more precise)to solve this issue. Any IDEAS? And I'm not talking about the older round body 44mm with the 3 screws.
 
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good info flash,Its funny that the full specs are suppose to be the most precise carbs out there,the ? is precise for what motor,the jetting is so similar from his recommendations for so many diff size motors.
Did you ever try and reverse jetting with them and a little higher pop off?
 

SuperJETT

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So you're dismissing them as being able to function properly but haven't actually tried any different needle/seat combos?

Have you actually gone through the tuning process from the beginning?
 

Flash-FX

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good info flash,Its funny that the full specs are suppose to be the most precise carbs out there,the ? is precise for what motor,the jetting is so similar from his recommendations for so many diff size motors.
Did you ever try and reverse jetting with them and a little higher pop off?

Yep, the larger pilot jet just moves (magnifies) the richness higher in the 1/4-1/3 throttle position. You can feel it in that "cruise" RPM (on the way out to the surf...rich...clean...rich..clean). You will want to hit the beach to try to lean out the L/S screw, but if that was set properly, there will be a hesitation now. After the ride, check out all the black stuff dripping from the pipe....wonder where that came from? The FS carbs have some epoxy in the top 2 holes, re-drilled to a smaller diameter. I think that was done to reduce this problem on the "test" engine. How long do your plugs last on those "surf sorties"?
 
Based on what I read here we should be modifying the OEM 44's as they have less holes. I think there is something missing on all the information being brought forward on this. Even if someone were to post it it would be discredited as not being it because it might not make sense.
An old car tuner once told me this when I was 20 years old. "It is hard when you think you know 90 % of what you think you need to know and in reality you only know 60 %. It is the missing 30 percent that really confuses you."
 

Flash-FX

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are these 49s or 48s?
I think MB has some FS 48's.

So you're dismissing them as being able to function properly but haven't actually tried any different needle/seat combos?
Have you actually gone through the tuning process from the beginning?
Was this question directed to MB or me?

Based on what I read here we should be modifying the OEM 44's as they have less holes. I think there is something missing on all the information being brought forward on this. Even if someone were to post it it would be discredited as not being it because it might not make sense.
An old car tuner once told me this when I was 20 years old. "It is hard when you think you know 90 % of what you think you need to know and in reality you only know 60 %. It is the missing 30 percent that really confuses you."
The information that is missing is how could Mikuni design a carburetor in the 1990's that works perfectly seamless (with just a couple of simple jet changes) on our new large displacement modified 2010 motors. The OEM 44's on a stock boat do a fine job, as they were designed for the simple, reliable 701. And I hear what you are saying about the "old car tuner", those are the guys I like to talk to (let them do most of the talking), learn twice as much that way. My response to the original MB's question,"muddy spot", with his 1/3-1/4 throttle issue is just some "observations" I had with jetting and attempts at tuning a couple of different motors in the last 15 years. Heck, I'll be the first to admit I don't know what I'm doing. If I did, I wouldn't post any of this. What's your solution to not have that 1/3-1/4 "muddy spot"?

LOL...
 
Heck, I'll be the first to admit I don't know what I'm doing. If I did, I wouldn't post any of this. What's your solution to not have that 1/3-1/4 "muddy spot"?

LOL...

I don't know I'm still at 90 %. If I ever get that last 10 % and find out I will post it here so everyone will tell me I'm wrong.
 
just to know for sure,I pulled the carbs off the stroker and put them on a ported 701 I have.At first they were still muddin along in 1/3 range,but I kept moving the pilot screw in adjusting the pop off slightly with bending the t bar.I forgot to bring a pop off guage with me,but I really smoothed out the 1/4 to 1/3 slow accel and cruise areas alot,I was close to getting it perfect and my freakin bendix took a dump,while I was 100 yrds from the ramp in 38 deg water on a sj,that really sucked. I should know soon.

norcal,they are 48s,the 49s are basically the same thing,same size throttle plate,just a even smaller venturi around the booster,to create a stronger signal,maybe that helps in low rpm range.
 

Matt_E

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38 deg water is fun to have your ski die in. :Banane13:
 
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