650/X-2 38 mm keihin or sbn 44 650sx

been doing a little research on how to get more power from my 89 650sx. I hear the 86-89 skis had a 28mm keihin car stock, and the 90-93 had a 38mm stock. Just wondering if it would be better to just go the 38mm keihin, or go the the sbn 44 and machine the intake manifold?
 
Location
SW UT
Your info is correct, except that 28mm came stock through 90. A single 44mm will give your ski more fuel, and the Mikuni carbs are also a lot cleaner and better designed. Though 44mm cost a bit of change, no idea what their price compared to a 38mm is (assuming you have a 86-90 year). I would go with the 44mm.
 
Location
dfw
been doing a little research on how to get more power from my 89 650sx. I hear the 86-89 skis had a 28mm keihin car stock, and the 90-93 had a 38mm stock. Just wondering if it would be better to just go the 38mm keihin, or go the the sbn 44 and machine the intake manifold?
A stock 91-95 manifold and carb is all your 650 can handle. You can always get a Keihin 40 from a 750 if you want to know what its like to tune an oversized carb.
 
Location
SW UT
A stock 91-95 manifold and carb is all your 650 can handle. You can always get a Keihin 40 from a 750 if you want to know what its like to tune an oversized carb.

What? 650sx run dual 38 and single 44 all the time. You can easily go bigger than a 40mm, and certainly bigger than stock manifold/38mm combo.
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
Group K is always a good place for info.

INTAKE SYSTEMS - All Group K 650 kits utilize single carb intake systems only. All '86 - '90 650cc engines were supplied stock with a "remote fuel pump" 28mm Keihin carb, while all '91-'93 650 engines were supplied with the newer model "integral pump" 38mm Keihin carb. Group K throat bores both of these carbs for use in their respective SLEEPER kits with the standard intake manifold and flame arrestor case. This throat boring is an extremely easy and cost effective way to increase intake ability without significantly affecting fuel consumption.

HAMMER KIT INTAKES - It's our position that the carburetor that can provide the best fuel mixing, at all throttle positions, is the carb that will provide the best overall acceleration and throttle response. Dual 38 carbs are commonly used on modified race boats because they can offer better overall throttle response than a heavily modified 44 Mikuni carb. 38 duals offer better response because the smaller 38 carbs can mix the fuel with the incoming air much more efficiently at partial throttle openings, not because they have greater volume abilities.

The 42 Keihin carb, used on all Group K Hammer kits, offers better overall fuel mixing and throttle response than any large throat single carb we have tested. This 42mm carb bolts directly onto the stock '91-'93 650 intake manifold where it works in concert with the small intake runners of the Group K modified '91-'93 650 manifold to provide throttle response and acceleration that no 44 Mikuni and few dual carb setups will match. The single 42mm Keihin carb has no troublesome linkage, and it features easy "two screw" mixture tuning. Your stock '91-'93 intake manifold must be bored slightly to accommodate the larger 42mm carb throat diameter. (the early 28mm type manifold will not accommodate the 42mm carb)

In our tests, the popular K & N flame arrestor replacements performed well as long as they were perfectly dry. However when they became even a little wet, they offered very restricted air intake ability until they were removed and allowed to dry out. For our Hammer kits we recommend the stock Kawasaki '91-'93 flame arrestor case and element. The intake mesh of the stock arrestor is so well guarded in the engine compartment that it is exposed to very little water spray. Whatever spray it may be exposed to will not clog the all stainless steel screen element in any way. The opening on the stock flame arrestor also matches perfectly to the throat opening of the new 42 Kiehin carb.

We have tested several dual carb kits on the 650 engines. Surprisingly they offered only slight increases in overall performance (about 1 mph). All the duals we tested proved to be very difficult to tune and synchronize. That, along with the high price tag, make them a very poor value. Stock '89-'93 Kaw. reed petals have consistently outlasted and out performed all the aftermarket reeds we've tested.
 
I have never tested a 40 or 42 but when I switched over to a sbn 44 it was a very large gain! The carb was my last mod too, but i also went through weather I should do a 42 or a 44. Group k is right, I think the 42 would be enough but it was pretty expencive to buy a carb and mod it so I figured I would just rather go with 44 since you can find good deals on them here and there.
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
I have a single 42 keihen I wanted $50 for. Needs a mounting bolts, includes the adapter to use with mikuni manifolds. Can PM if interested.
 
so are the intake manifolds the same for the 28mm and the 38mm? Just so I'm clear, if I get the 44, then I have to dremel out the intake manifold a bit to get the best performance? --also, just so you guys know, my ski is stock except for some handling mods and switching to premix.
 
Location
SW UT
"for best performance"...sure, otherwise you will have two holes that aren't the same size so will have a giant lip lol and not allow as much fuel/air into it. Yes, you will have to open up the stock carbs to 44mm or what ever you want, unless you get an aftermarket manifold (usually about $350 for carb and manifold combination on ebay). I'm pretty sure the intake manifolds are the same for the two carbs (aside from the intake hole diameter), but someone will have to check me on that since I've never owned a 38mm stock.
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
I wouldn't try to modify the carbs on my own. If you want to throat bore them, you should consider having it done professionally.

As for the manifold, I am not sure, but I have a few stock manifolds and I highly doubt you can use a 28mm manifold with a 38 or especially 44mm carb. Even if you can bore the opening, the passages would probably be too small.

I also happen to have a Maximum thrust manifold for a mikuni bolt pattern (but would work with the keihen carb I have due to the adapter I have) with reed stuffers built into the manifold. Also for sale.
 
okay thanks vumad, it will be a bit until I get a new carb, its dirt bike and snowboard season until I get a wet suit ha. Another question though, will swapping carbs still make a significant power gain even with the stock exhaust? I've been thinking about doing that stock exhaust mod, but I still need to look into exactly how to do it.
 
Location
SW UT
Yes, a huge power increase. It's probably the best single upgrade you can do in terms of power you get and simplicity of operation and putting it on. We have an otherwise stock 650sx with a 44mm BN Mikuni and it pulls a lot more than a stock 650sx. With a stock carb, I feel it barely gets on plane and has no tug (and I weigh 130), with the 44mm you get a lot more torque for hole shots and a lot more top end. Definitely worth the cash if you wanna upgrade your 650/X-2.
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
I don't know. My 650sx came with a 44mm carb and a stock pipe. If I had a 28mm carb, I'd buy a new carb asap. If I had a 38mm carb, I would wait for a good deal on a clean 44mm mikuni SBN. I don't know how much difference the upgrade from a 38mm w/ a stock pipe to a 38mm w/ a AM pipe is compared to a stock pipe upgrading to a 44mm carb from a 38mm. I doubt anyone could tell you for sure. I'd probably make that decision based on the condition of my carb. If my carb was a POS, I'd certainly get a carb before a pipe, but if that carb looks like it's fresh out of the box, the pipe might be the way to go.
 
Location
dfw
okay thanks vumad, it will be a bit until I get a new carb, its dirt bike and snowboard season until I get a wet suit ha. Another question though, will swapping carbs still make a significant power gain even with the stock exhaust? I've been thinking about doing that stock exhaust mod, but I still need to look into exactly how to do it.

Going from an 86-90 carb/manifold to a 91-95 will make a noticeable difference. From there an aftermarket manifold and SBN44 will wake up the pipe a little with a stock ported cylinder and be a little better than that with good port/pipe combo. A carburetor need only be big enough. Most power comes from the porting /pipe combo and having the pump set for enough rpm. Inexperience will lead you straight to the carb and muffler while skipping everything else that really counts.
 
Location
TX
I wouldn't try to modify the carbs on my own. If you want to throat bore them, you should consider having it done professionally.

As for the manifold, I am not sure, but I have a few stock manifolds and I highly doubt you can use a 28mm manifold with a 38 or especially 44mm carb. Even if you can bore the opening, the passages would probably be too small.

My 87 had the original (28mm) carb and intake when i bought it. I replaced the carb with a 38mm and opened up the intake to match. The original opening was about 34mm. You can see in the pictures that 38mm is starting to get into the side wall as you travel down into the intake.

I have another 89 650 i am building with the same small carb on it. This time I am going to experiment with carb / pipe setups a little more to see what each change does and compare it to my buddy's stock 89 650. The 38mm carb I have now makes a pretty big difference in off the line and top speed. Looking to finish it off the next one with a 42 or 44. I knew the pictures I took would pay off - here is the 38mm bore on a stock , what 42 would look like and 44mm. 44 is getting pretty thin up top but will be interesting to see if the choke point is lower (the side passages open up pretty quickly - so it will probably have to go from 44mm round up top and taper as the sides open up.) Not much to lose with playing around with it.

intake38-2.jpgintake38-3.jpgintake-42.jpgintake44.jpg
 

Vumad

Super Hero, with a cape!
Location
St. Pete, FL
a great deal can be had on a 44mm mikuni for $80 and $50 for a manifold. I was only asking $50 shipped for my 42mm keihen and people have been trying to get it for cheaper because they think it should be less since I can't say for sure it doesn't need a rebuild. Either the 42mm carb is not very desireable, or there's plenty of other deals out there that people don't need mine. Either way, point is that if my clean 42mm isn't selling at $50, chances are you can find something for much less than $360 for a set. I sold my mikuni manifold for $70 iirc and think added a set of reeds for only a few $ more.

If you're spending $350 on a used carb/manifold, you're buy something too big or too new for your ski. 650sx don't get that kind of money into them. People with that kind of money buy SXRs and superjets. Hell, pipes are only $220.
 
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