TNT Waterbox / TNT V2 Pro Exhaust System / PowerFactor Exhaust System (ride notes)

Roo

it's all good
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Lake Orion, Michigan
#1
I won't call this a review, but rather rides notes... I have had the opportunity to use a couple different TNT waterboxes, a complete TNT V2 Pro Exhaust System, and PowerFactor Exhaust Systems / Components on a couple different ski's back to back, and thought I'd share my experience(s).

While I have owned a LOT of different hull and motor combos over the years (Lamey 803cc, xs865, xs1000, xs1200), all of them I ran a PowerFactor setup only on, so I won't use them in the notes below. The ski(s) I used both the PowerFactor and TNT components on are VERY similar in spec as noted below.

My Disclaimer: Everyone has there own idea on what "powerful" is, so take what I present below with a grain of salt I suppose. In reality, there are many different combinations of components out there that can be assembled. For me, I am shooting for a specific powerband. Up until mid summer this year / 2016, I wanted great bottom and mid, and didn't care much about the top. This mean't I could approach the setup wake much slower and still do what I wanted to do. I sacrifice a little height in my tricks by doing this, but I feel more controlled and comfortable going slower. Now after doing more combo type riding (multiple flips, flips to spin, spin to flip), I have been chasing more of a good bottom, great mid, and good top powerband, while also trying to keep my speed up going into the setup wake.


I am fortunate to live and ride on Lake Orion, where we have MANY top riders (Justin Sylvain, Evan Krefski, Bobby Clouse, Scotty Delong). Everytime I made a change to the ski, I also put it in there hands for feedback, to put it to the "bigger / better combo test" than I can. All of them reported back almost identical feedback, that I go on to list below.




First setup (December 2015 / Thrown together right before Daytona freeride)
  • X Scream DVX Hull
  • PHP898 w/PHP Intake
  • 48mm Novi's
  • 148mm X Scream Mag Pump
  • MSD Total Loss
  • 250 psi Compression (VP113)
  • PowerFactor Manifold (ported)
  • PowerFactor Chamber (ran as a wetpipe, injecting at exhaust manifold, and stinger end)
  • PowerFactor Waterbox

Setup before: Tuned and dialed spot on. Very snappy, and great low end. After a lot of experimentation with different jets in the water injection system, I have found 175 Degree's on the Exhaust Chamber (fastest part), and 130 Degree's on the Waterbox (top) to be most optimal for what I am doing (which means changing jets as the water / air temps change). Video(s) of it in action BEFORE any TNT Waterbox installed:

Backflip

Another Backflip

Barrol Roll to Crash Landing (no shame :D)

Modification Performed: Removed PowerFactor Waterbox, installed TNT waterbox. Was hoping to quiet the machine down a lot, and NOT sacrifice power.

Observations: First, it was quite a bit quieter. BUT, even more noticeable, was the loss in power... everywhere. It softened up the power across the whole powerband. I tried playing with the amount of water going into the Stinger end (and ultimately to the waterbox)... The best result I had, was overflooding it with water, to create more back pressure, however unless you ALWAYS stayed on the throttle, it made the ski unrideable and very boggy down low because of the amount of water going through it... even then it did not perform as well as the PowerFactor waterbox. I switched back to the PowerFactor Waterbox.






Second setup (April 2016 / All brand new components from what is listed above)
  • X Scream DVX Hull
  • PHP898 w/PHP Intake
  • 48mm Novi's (LS Edition)
  • 155mm Skat 2 Piece Pump
  • MSD Total Loss
  • 250 psi Compression (VP113)
  • TNT Manifold (ported)
  • TNT V2 Pro Chamber (ran as a wetpipe, injecting at exhaust manifold, and stinger end)
  • TNT Waterbox
Setup before: The system as a whole ran OK at best... I experimented with a LOT of different combinations of jets, flow control valve pressures (and also removed the flow control in some combinations), the amount of water going into the exhaust and waterbox. Temperature ranges, I shot for very cold, warm, and also hot, documenting each change. I personally felt, the same Temps I was shooting for on my PowerFactor system, worked best for me on the TNT setup, BUT.... overall, wasn't happy, and nowhere close to the previous setup above. But, like the observation above... The best result I had, was overflooding the waterbox with water, to create more back pressure, however unless you ALWAYS stayed on the throttle, it made the ski unrideable and very boggy down low because of the amount of water going through it. I should note, I only had 20 gallons of fuel burned, and a 1" section of weld split on the V2 chamber. Fortunately, it was warrantied no questions asked.


1st Modification Performed: Removed TNT waterbox, and installed PowerFactor Waterbox.

Setup became: TNT Manifold, TNT V2 Pro Chamber, and PowerFactor Waterbox.

Observations: First, was it was a bit louder. BUT, even more noticeable, was the GAIN in power... everywhere. Made the powerband snappier EVERYWHERE. I continued to experiment with the amount of water going into the Stinger (waterbox). The dryer it was, the better it was. But still, no mater how much I tinkered and experimented with the Water Injection on the TNT V2 Chamber (again, LOTS of different jet and flow control combinations), it did NOT feel as good as the overall PowerFactor Wetpipe setup.



2nd Modification Performed: Removed TNT V2 Chamber, and installed PowerFactor Chamber (configured as a wetpipe).

Setup became: TNT Manifold, PowerFactor Chamber (wetpipe setup), and PowerFactor Waterbox.

Observations: Literally, a night and day difference with little tuning. Shot for 175 Chamber temp, and 130 Waterbox temp like listed above. Insane bottom, good mid and ok top. I would have liked to have spent more time with this chamber, but I was borrowing it from a riding buddy and he wanted it back quick! (whom actually has a VERY comparable build setup). We put the TNT V2 Pro Chamber on his boat, spent some time playing with it, and couldn't get it to hit or perform nearly as well the PowerFactor Wet Chamber.



3rd Modification Performed: Removed PowerFactor Wetpipe Chamber, and installed PowerFactor Dry Pipe Chamber.

Setup became: TNT Manifold, PowerFactor Dry Chamber, and PowerFactor Waterbox.

Observations: I lost a little bottom end, picked up a LOT more mid pull, and good top. The nose of the ski felt a little heavier (because there is now quite a bit of water in the cooling jacket, cooling the exhaust). Overall though, this has been my favorite setup and what I am currently sticking with. I like the heavier nose feeling, as it lets the nose (in my opinion) fall into the setup wake easier, for then riding up it. The only tuning involved, is the amount of water spraying into the system at the Stinger end with the Flor Control Valve (no jet restrictions). I didn't rely on the temp strip, rather the "splash" test this time (like I was used to from years of previous PowerFactor use). The Dryer I ran the waterbox, the better it performed, however I splashed water on the waterbox, and played with the Flow Control Valve until the water would quickly evaporate off the box, but not quite boil (that's too hot).

Vid and Pic of the most recent setup with the Dry Pipe (I'll add to this if I can get someone to film some multi flips / spins for me):

Barrel Roll

Flip.JPG



Waterbox Conclusion:
The PowerFactor Waterbox performed better, both on the PowerFactor system, and the TNT system. I know of two other local riders, whom have similar setups to mine who also had these same findings (sorry, not name dropping).

Exhaust System Conclusion: The PowerFactor Dry Pipe configuration is my favorite. Second would be the PowerFactor Wet Pipe configuration. Third on my list would be the TNT configuration. My 2 cents, after spending a LOT of Test-n-Tune time, and burning a LOT of race gas, I through in the towel on trying to make the TNT system perform as well as the PowerFactor system (either wet or dry). That said, if I was building a straight up Freeride / Cruiser machine that I wanted a good "all around" powerband on, I'd possibly consider running a TNT system again. But for what I enjoy, it's not for me...


Hope someone finds this post interesting :)
-Andrew
 
Last edited:

Christian_83

Xscream
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#9
Good solid review! I thought i read wrong, at 250 PSI compression :) But you wrote it twice, dang it thats a lot compression!
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
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Sep 19, 2009
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Location
Georgetown ca
#12
Roo, hats off to you. Even though you didn't find my product to be the winner you wrote a fantastic review.
Best I have ever read.
Job well done and thanks for taking the time to do it.

To add to your review. You mentioned testing few different Tnt WB but I am in aware of you getting anything but our standard and offset box.
His finding on our water box has led me to do some testing over last couple weeks on engines with big compression and I have found that our standard WB IS NOT GOOD WITH OVER 220 comp. on most setups.
We have come out with a new L2 water box that will be available starting this week that greatly improves on those running high compression and heavy timing advance.
The TNT pipe does not respond well to high timing and doesn't get enough heat in the pipe and it will make the boat lazy in mid and suffer on top with no real bottom end gain.
Roo I don't know if you missed that in testing or just stated the basics in your testing.
But info for those in the future if you are running 32-38 deg timing with MSD you may not be able to pull the timing back fast enough to get good results with our product.
If your running a programable TL you can spike the timing to 38 and pull it back 11-13 final and it will respond well.
But it's tricky to pull it back at the right rpm to get the pipe to surface heat inside and really come to life.
If your running high compression and want a L2 box there just becoming available and not all the dealers know about them yet.
Roo did not have one of these boxes to test but I am sending one to PHP tomorrow.
 

Roo

it's all good
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Joined
Oct 13, 2006
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174
Location
Lake Orion, Michigan
#13
@tntsuperjet claims that his water box makes more rpm's and HP then any other waterbox. Did you reach out to him at all for tuning help?
I did not have contact with TNT direct, however I was in constant communication with my engine builder (PHP), who was in constant contact with TNT. I would literally get back to back phone calls on days the two communicated.

Did you do any pump changes each time you changed the pipe setup or did you just swap pipes and play with pipe temps?
Glad you asked. With the TNT setup, besides everything mentioned above, I played with different Pump Cones, different Nozzles / diameters, as well as props... all the whole time, trying to achieve something that hit at least as good as the PowerFactor Wet or Dry setups... But I couldn't get it to hit as good, or even exceed.

In response to TNT's message below, and your question here, I also played with different timing.

It was advised by TNT to drop the Start Retard from 5500 to 4500, so I did. The idea was to better pre-heat the exhaust. I put it through the rest of the different combinations with it. Felt like I took a step backwards, so back to 5500 it went.

Roo, hats off to you. Even though you didn't find my product to be the winner you wrote a fantastic review.
Best I have ever read.
Job well done and thanks for taking the time to do it.

To add to your review. You mentioned testing few different Tnt WB but I am in aware of you getting anything but our standard and offset box.
His finding on our water box has led me to do some testing over last couple weeks on engines with big compression and I have found that our standard WB IS NOT GOOD WITH OVER 220 comp. on most setups.
We have come out with a new L2 water box that will be available starting this week that greatly improves on those running high compression and heavy timing advance.
The TNT pipe does not respond well to high timing and doesn't get enough heat in the pipe and it will make the boat lazy in mid and suffer on top with no real bottom end gain.
Roo I don't know if you missed that in testing or just stated the basics in your testing.
But info for those in the future if you are running 32-38 deg timing with MSD you may not be able to pull the timing back fast enough to get good results with our product.
If your running a programable TL you can spike the timing to 38 and pull it back 11-13 final and it will respond well.
But it's tricky to pull it back at the right rpm to get the pipe to surface heat inside and really come to life.
If your running high compression and want a L2 box there just becoming available and not all the dealers know about them yet.
Roo did not have one of these boxes to test but I am sending one to PHP tomorrow.
Correct, I used the Normal Waterbox, and an Offset Waterbox.

I also mildly played with the timing (stated above / dropped start retard time). Static timing on my setup is ~37.

I only have experience playing with these combination of parts on High Compression setups so far.

Maybe if I jump back to Pump Gas next season, we'll give it another go, but I'll be honest I am a bit burned out from all the testing and tuning this spring and just now focusing on riding.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Likes
76
#17
Roo, hats off to you. Even though you didn't find my product to be the winner you wrote a fantastic review.
Best I have ever read.
Job well done and thanks for taking the time to do it.

To add to your review. You mentioned testing few different Tnt WB but I am in aware of you getting anything but our standard and offset box.
His finding on our water box has led me to do some testing over last couple weeks on engines with big compression and I have found that our standard WB IS NOT GOOD WITH OVER 220 comp. on most setups.
We have come out with a new L2 water box that will be available starting this week that greatly improves on those running high compression and heavy timing advance.
The TNT pipe does not respond well to high timing and doesn't get enough heat in the pipe and it will make the boat lazy in mid and suffer on top with no real bottom end gain.
Roo I don't know if you missed that in testing or just stated the basics in your testing.
But info for those in the future if you are running 32-38 deg timing with MSD you may not be able to pull the timing back fast enough to get good results with our product.
If your running a programable TL you can spike the timing to 38 and pull it back 11-13 final and it will respond well.
But it's tricky to pull it back at the right rpm to get the pipe to surface heat inside and really come to life.
If your running high compression and want a L2 box there just becoming available and not all the dealers know about them yet.
Roo did not have one of these boxes to test but I am sending one to PHP tomorrow.
Admitting your product is not the best at something and publicly stating it, is not something many vendors will do. You just guaranteed yourself a sale from me (or a few) in the future due to your upfront candor and honesty. What I value most in a vendor is a someone I can trust. Kudos.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Likes
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#18
No pipe can be perfect for every setup, the best you can hope for is to cover the widest spectrum of combinations.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

tntsuperjet

Tntperformance-engineering.com
Joined
Sep 19, 2009
Likes
1,458
Location
Georgetown ca
#19
Without reviews like Roo, how can we improve our product ??
We found more power in the new L2 waterbox because the testing PHP boys did with engines we didn't have when we designed the combo.
So this weekend I spent all weekend testing different baffle design with engine with high comp and total loss and we came up with a better design for that application.
We also found that high compression and high timing likes a smaller stinger in the chamber.

With our testing this weekend with a 1000 I found that actually went backwards and boat lost power with our standard pipe and water box once I raised the compression to 230 and installed total loss.
Boat ran much harder with stock ignition and 195comp.
With the stinger reduced and the L2 waterbox we actually gained power with the high compression and total loss.
Thank you for the compliment Thomps33.

AS FOR TESTING RRP.
PHP boys have already been there and done that. So have many others.
The RRP makes really good HP but it signs off to early for most setups, and it's material makes it tough to change temp on and change its rpm range.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Likes
158
Location
Minnesota
#20
Tim,

Would it be possible to make stinger reducers (like the 33mm & 25mm reducers Factory pipe used to offer for the Type 9) for the V2 & V3 chambers, or would the existing stinger have to be cut off and replaced?
 
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