Total Loss Ignition

[Matt_E]

Here is what can go wrong with TL

1. Brain Goes out
2. Pickups go out
3. figure out which pickup went out............ See #2
4. Bad connection (something shorting out)
5. Battery stops taking full charge.......
6. See Items 1-5.



1. If the brain goes out, you're SOL. They are helluva lot expensive. If mine ever goes, I'm back to stock ignition

2. MSD pickups have an annoying habit of going out, and they're not cheap.
MSD charges 65 dollars a pop, and if you're unlucky, they will be backordered.

3. Figure out which went out? Easy, take a resistance measurement across each pickup. They should read nearly zero ohms (a short) across. The pickup is just a very small coil, with only a few windings, encased in plastic.
Bad pickups read as an open circuit, or anything more than 10 ohms.
I have actually fixed the last three that broke on me. Simply grind away the black plastic until you find the break in the wire. Solder it up, and put some thickened epoxy on it to close it back up.
Works like a charm and saves me money. (I do keep spare pickups around, though!)

4.) Battery not taking full charge? Did you charge it properly? Yes, that's important. Oddyssey batteries need to be charged a certain way, especially if you'll be doing it every single day for months at a time.
Oddyssey calls for a non-constant-current type charger. That means DON'T charge it with these 2A/10A/12A chargers. Those put out a constant current, which damages the Oddysseys after a while. Also, the output voltage should be between 13.6 and 14.5 volts, and no more!
The newer automotive chargers often go up past 15.5 volts, and that will kill the Oddyssey battery over time.
The ideal charger will put out 13.5-14.5 Volts, start at about 10-12Amps for a nearly empty battery, and slowly go down to 0 Amps for a full charge.


The MSD Total Loss ignitions are not fool proof and require some special knowledge and special maintenance.
If you take care of the system (including battery) and know how to fix certain issues, it can be a very reliable performance ignition.

[SuperJETT]

One trick is to 3M 5200 the pickup wires to the stator plate so vibrations are minimized.

[waxhead]

I am working on my total loss ignitions at the moment
it will haave a replacement cdi for your box a lightweight flywheel and a stator plate
you will not even be abke to tell its in there unless you ride it

[Matt_E]

One trick is to 3M 5200 the pickup wires to the stator plate so vibrations are minimized.


When I "repaired" my two pickups, I put some extra resin around the wires to guide them towards the stator plate. But I like your 5200 idea a lot better.

[jetskiking]

So me and a buddy were noticing Paul at Magoos runs an analog.We were wondering. Is the digital that much better considering the price?What about reliability between the two?And is the analog worth doing over a rad charging flywheel if you have an enhancer.

[waxhead]

the rad is good
the total loss is better
not sure why paul would be running an analog other than the fact he probely had one sitting around

[orange flattop freestyler]

I am working on my total loss ignitions at the moment
it will haave a replacement cdi for your box a lightweight flywheel and a stator plate
you will not even be abke to tell its in there unless you ride it

Hey buddy,

I went back from MSD TL to charging because i got fed up with its problems. :frown:

Without sounding offensive, what will make your one better reliability? price? design? features etc?

I may be interested if it sounds good :biggrin:

[Matt_E]

So me and a buddy were noticing Paul at Magoos runs an analog.We were wondering. Is the digital that much better considering the price?What about reliability between the two?And is the analog worth doing over a rad charging flywheel if you have an enhancer.

I talked to him about that before. He told me the reliability is better.
Personally, I Have heard that the single channel, single coil digital is the worst for reliability.
I ran the analog system for a while, but had trouble with it. I ended up getting the dual channel digital for a good price and have had great luck with it.
The adjustability is much better with the digital brain.

[Matt_E]

Hey buddy,

I went back from MSD TL to charging because i got fed up with its problems. :frown:

Without sounding offensive, what will make your one better reliability? price? design? features etc?

I may be interested if it sounds good :biggrin:


Like I said, the MSD TL has issues. Most of them can be resolved, though.
To me, it's worth the extra hassle.

[waxhead]

Hey buddy,

I went back from MSD TL to charging because i got fed up with its problems. :frown:

Without sounding offensive, what will make your one better reliability? price? design? features etc?

I may be interested if it sounds good :biggrin:

Thats a good question
Ok well it runs the same electronics as the cdi i am selling on here for a std flywheel
which has proven to be very reliable

its very programable being able to be programed down to .25 of a degree every 50 rpm
the cdi bolts in place of your own cdi so its in a waterproof box and a direct replacement for your stock cdi

because its digital it doesnt draw hardly anything of the battery and you can use it for two whole days and not have to worry about your battery going flat

the flywheel will be of a very light weight so it will buss like a chain saw

[orange flattop freestyler]

Sound good, what sort of money would one of these be and how much to get it to the UK?

Is it set via a PC interface?

[waxhead]

yes it is via a pc interface
i am not able to release a price just yet until its done
U.K you say
No problem at all

[orange flattop freestyler]

Okay buddy,

it will take a lot to get me to sway from my virtually bulletproof charging setup but if you keep me posted on your progress i will be happy to listen.

Cheers

[waxhead]

i have the same digital ignition for your charging system as well

i have a post on here about digital ignitions for superjets and sxrs
it even shows you the interface

[orange flattop freestyler]

Ill go find it and have a look.

cheers

[jetskiking]

I talked to him about that before. He told me the reliability is better.
Personally, I Have heard that the single channel, single coil digital is the worst for reliability.
I ran the analog system for a while, but had trouble with it. I ended up getting the dual channel digital for a good price and have had great luck with it.
The adjustability is much better with the digital brain.Yeah he said he ran it for reliability and cost. He also said beware of the single channel digital.

[Matt_E]

Some folks simply run a total loss without a brain. :frown: :headbang:

[robertg]

What is the difference in battery life between the analogue and digital? I want to buy a digital but they are difficult to find cheap.

[Matt_E]

I've ran both, and yet I can't really compare it. Theoretically, the dual channel should be noticably better.
However, I would only be out a maximum of four hours at a time anyways, so I can't say.

[hangtime]

Just a little info on the Odyssey batteries.
I just got one from Magoos a couple of months ago and this is right from the owners manual in front of me .

Matt is right about not exceeding 15 Volts on your charger (this will allow gasses to escape from the battery and destroy it. it does say you have to have a charger that slowly reduces amps.

(Quote from owners manual) - to fully charge an odyssey battery 20 amps constant currant is needed with charger voltage betwwen 14.1 and 14.7 volts not exceeding 15 volts as this will cause the battery to out-gas hydrogen from the battery shortening life and causing premature failure .Charging voltages should be measured during the time the charger is going from full output to to reducing output .

that being said ,I dont run TL but have never had to charge my battery (it's only about 9 months old now ):headbang:

[Matt_E]

All this becomes vitally important when you charge the battery every single day.

[hangtime]

All this becomes vitally important when you charge the battery every single day.

I could imagine it would :headbang:

[Matt_E]

In a matter of 3 months I killed an Odysse PC625 by charging it incorrectly every single day.
It takes less and less charge, until it's worhtless.

[2nd nature]

thanks for hooking me up with troy. he everything i needed. :cool2:

[Matt_E]

I am glad he was able to help.

[keefer]

In a matter of 3 months I killed an Odysse PC625 by charging it incorrectly every single day.
It takes less and less charge, until it's worhtless.

Check out this pdf document from the East Penn Manufacturing Co. They make the Deka and Magna Power AGM batteries. Pages 12-14 discuss charging rules for Gel & AGM batteries. Good stuff. http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0139.pdf

[Matt_E]

Odyssey isn't a gel battery. It's a plain old sealed lead acid battery.

[tricky1]

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/charging.htm

[keefer]

Odyssey isn't a gel battery. It's a plain old sealed lead acid battery.

Dude the Odyssey is a AGM battery, that is why it is called a Dry Cell battery. There are three types of batteries that you will most commonly see in motorsports, and they are all lead acid varieties. 1. Lead acid with liquid electrolyte 2. Sealed Gel with a gel electrolyte and 3. AGM with the elecrolyte absorbed into a glass mat. The latter two are recombinant in that they will only gas if overheated or overcharged. This is why they die prematurely mostly due to improper charging techniques. Here is a page from the Odyssey tech manual FAQ section from their website, checkout where it answers the question on how the Odyssey differs from a gel battery.

809

[Matt_E]

What was your point? I said it's not a gel battery.
It's a sealed lead-acid battery. (AGM falls into this category)

[waxhead]

ok here is a question for every one
want do you want in a total loss ignition
I am debating at the monet if to use the msd flywheel and pickup
as i figure there is alot of guys out there already with this stuff and it would retro fit your old gear

[Matt_E]

Adjustability
Performance (Through light FW and adjustability)
Reliability

[Jr.]

wax, Keep in mind , there are 2 differant MSD TL set-ups. Single trigger & Duel Trigger......... Duel uses 2 seprate coils. Flywheel & stator(pick-up) plates are differant.

[waxhead]

i was just trying to ring you again paul to ask you this

ok i will pass on that idea then
was trying to figure out a way to use all those old flywheels sitting around

[keefer]

What was your point? I said it's not a gel battery.
It's a sealed lead-acid battery. (AGM falls into this category)

Not trying to argue, just pointing out that a gel battery is a sealed lead acid battery and is similar to a AGM in that it uses recombinant technology. I saw your post about killing a PC625 Odyssey AGM in 3 months. I posted the links thinking that maybe you were overcharging it with too much voltage or constant current. Either of which will kill a gel or AGM quickly. I personally would not want to keep buying $90 Odysseys if you could avoid it. Its all good, just trying to help. :biggrin: I have a local guy who can get some AGM PWC batteries for $50. I have been running them for over a year now with no problems. They will pulse 800 amps to crank the crap out of a hi comp engine.

[waxhead]

Matt E the total loss will use the same sort of ignition box as i am selling on here with just a few small inner circuit changes

thats bit has already been done
its the machining of the flywheel i am working on now and the right pickup
the one i have at the moment is to big and i want it to be smaller so i can make the flywheel lighter

[Matt_E]

Not trying to argue, just pointing out that a gel battery is a sealed lead acid battery and is similar to a AGM in that it uses recombinant technology. I saw your post about killing a PC625 Odyssey AGM in 3 months. I posted the links thinking that maybe you were overcharging it with too much voltage or constant current. Either of which will kill a gel or AGM quickly. I personally would not want to keep buying $90 Odysseys if you could avoid it. Its all good, just trying to help. :biggrin: I have a local guy who can get some AGM PWC batteries for $50. I have been running them for over a year now with no problems. They will pulse 800 amps to crank the crap out of a hi comp engine.

Eh? I am confused....I am well aware of why I killed the battery...I thought I posted that.
I used the wrong charger. Constant current, with high voltage = bad juju for Odysseys. I thought I'd made that clear.
And Odyssey is not a gel-type.

EDIT: I did post it. Did you not see it?

4.) Battery not taking full charge? Did you charge it properly? Yes, that's important. Oddyssey batteries need to be charged a certain way, especially if you'll be doing it every single day for months at a time.
Oddyssey calls for a non-constant-current type charger. That means DON'T charge it with these 2A/10A/12A chargers. Those put out a constant current, which damages the Oddysseys after a while. Also, the output voltage should be between 13.6 and 14.5 volts, and no more!
The newer automotive chargers often go up past 15.5 volts, and that will kill the Oddyssey battery over time.
The ideal charger will put out 13.5-14.5 Volts, start at about 10-12Amps for a nearly empty battery, and slowly go down to 0 Amps for a full charge.

[keefer]

Yeah, well duh, I just back tracked the thread and saw that on page 1. Sorry for the mix up. Did not mean to jack the thread.

[Matt_E]

:bananajump: :bananajump: :bananajump: :nutkick:

It's all good.

[keefer]

wax, Keep in mind , there are 2 differant MSD TL set-ups. Single trigger & Duel Trigger......... Duel uses 2 seprate coils. Flywheel & stator(pick-up) plates are differant.

Does the dual trigger unit fire each plug independently using different pickups or is there another reason for dual as opposed to a single pickup? Just wondering..

[Matt_E]

That's the reason, right there.

Hotter spark per plug, and uses less energy. = more efficient.

[waxhead]

Why is every one so concerned with this hotter spark thing
There is no power to be gained unless you are misfiring due to a weak spark
after that then the hotter spark is just there to waste your battery life

[Matt_E]

I am not sure I get it either. However, that's always been MSD's claim to fame.
I see the real advantage in the dual coils in saving some battery life.
But is there something to be gained here? I mean, I charge the battery every single day anyways.

[waxhead]

the thing is matt you are still firing a coil
so its going to use the battery as to how much more or less i wouldnt know
to make a bigger spark is going to use more as well

i thought the msd claim to fame was it brain boxes breaking down

the reality is that a well set up total loss boat seems to last all weekend no matter what ignition it has on it

[robertg]

Doesn't MSD mean multiple spark discharge? I thought it fires the spark a few times per revolution.

[jetskiking]

This is funny!!! Me and jacobski were talking about this yesterday.Msd ignition,Hotter spark and multiple spark.My oppinion is that the reason you get a gain is from the timing curves.All this multiple spark hotter spark stuff is selling points.I would think that once you ignited the mixture its gone. Throwing another or a hotter spark in the same place isnt going to make it burn any better. Now on that note I could see were having two sparks spread throughout the combustion chamber would create a more efficiant burn. Kinda like the ford rangers. Look at it like this. If Im standing in a room full of explosive gas vapors and I take a 9v battery and arc it to cause an explosion. The explosion wouldnt really be any smaller than if I did it with a car battery. Thats just my oppinion and I am not an expert.

[Matt_E]

the thing is matt you are still firing a coil
so its going to use the battery as to how much more or less i wouldnt know
to make a bigger spark is going to use more as well


A single channel fires both plugs at the same time.
Assuming that the secondary voltage is the same from single to dual channel, the single channel ignition will draw more current from the battery.

[Matt_E]

Now on that note I could see were having two sparks spread throughout the combustion chamber would create a more efficiant burn. Kinda like the ford rangers.


On that application (Ranger) the plugs fire at different times. The idea is to ignite all of the fuel/air mixture completely, and not waste anything.

[WAB]

Doesn't MSD mean multiple spark discharge? I thought it fires the spark a few times per revolution.
Even the stock coil & CDi does that, doesn't it?
The plugs spark at the same time so it does not matter if you put the plug wires on the wrong plugs. That should mean they are sparking multiple times each relolution of the crank.


lol at wax
"i thought the msd claim to fame was it brain boxes breaking down"

[waxhead]

i agree matt it may use more energy to fire a double coil i am not sure
but i believe the amount of spark that an msd throws around would use alot more

anyway i have seen all total losses run all weekend
the main issue is badly tuned skis that are hard to start
the starter uses alot more than the cdi

[Matt_E]

Even the stock coil & CDi does that, doesn't it?
The plugs spark at the same time so it does not matter if you put the plug wires on the wrong plugs. That should mean they are sparking multiple times each relolution of the crank.


You're confusing two things here....Multiple Spark Discharge has nothing to do with both plugs firing at the same time. That's done because it's simpler and cheaper.
Judging from the existence of only two input wires into the stock coil, I would say the stock CDI does that. (For 2 cyl applications, anyway)

Multiple Spark Discharge, on the other hand, is about sparking multiple times instead of just one continuous spark. I am not sure what advantage there would be...unless the multiple sparks last longer than just one spark.
And no, the stock CDI does not do that....it's circuitry doesn't allow for it.

[waxhead]

the oem one is called a wasted spark systems
there is a few cars that do the same thing

[Matt_E]

i agree matt it may use more energy to fire a double coil i am not sure
but i believe the amount of spark that an msd throws around would use alot more

True. So, comparing just between different MSD systems, the dual channel would be slightly more desirable.
I would find the dual channel system better simply because of the adjustability advantage of the digital system over the analog, and the reliability advantage over the single channel digital system.

anyway i have seen all total losses run all weekend
the main issue is badly tuned skis that are hard to start
the starter uses alot more than the cdi

I think the MSD systems (The Digital one, anyways) accounts for this by retarding the timing 20 degrees on initial startup.

[Matt_E]

the oem one is called a wasted spark systems
there is a few cars that do the same thing


It's just easier to build, and slightly cheaper.

[waxhead]

i am talking about just cranking the engine over
weither the ignition is turned on or not
the hard part for the battery is getting that mass spining

i would say yes the wasted spark system is cheaper to make and thats why they do it

you have mentioned msd and reliable in the same post again
i am confused is there sone one out there that hasnt had to replace there triggers a few times and there brain a few more

[Matt_E]

The reliability issue is disconcerting, yes. I think the triggers are unreliable by design. They can be fixed once broken, and can be made so they won't break again as easily.
The brains seem to be a hit-n-miss, much like the enhancers. My current Pro-Digital II is working like a champ - well, minus the broken timing LED.
I had one broken analog brain before that, and another somewhat sketchy analog brain.
However, as I said earlier...if my current brain ever breaks, I am not replacing it.

i am talking about just cranking the engine over
weither the ignition is turned on or not
the hard part for the battery is getting that mass spining


That hardly has to do with the ignition. That's a starter/battery issue.

[waxhead]

The reliability issue is disconcerting, yes. I think the triggers are unreliable by design. They can be fixed once broken, and can be made so they won't break again as easily.
The brains seem to be a hit-n-miss, much like the enhancers. My current Pro-Digital II is working like a champ - well, minus the broken timing LED.
I had one broken analog brain before that, and another somewhat sketchy analog brain.
However, as I said earlier...if my current brain ever breaks, I am not replacing it.



That hardly has to do with the ignition. That's a starter/battery issue.

Thats my point
every one is so hung up on how long the battery will last
and i am saying if your ski is tuned well so it starts easily then the battery charge the cdi uses isnt an issue

[Matt_E]

I am not with you...what does "tuning" have to do with the hard starts?
It's either ridiculously advanced timing, a bad starter, a bad battery, or bad connections.

EDIT: BTW, Yes I agree...Total Loss ignitions are going to use battery, get used to it. I don't think the differences are noteworthy.

[waxhead]

well if your low end mixture is not set correctly
or you n/s are leaking so it floods when it sits there
then its going to take a lot of cranking to get it going

[Matt_E]

Aaah...okay, I follow you.
Yes...that's obviously not an ignition issue. But it will be turned into one if you are runnning a Total Loss, can't get your ski started in less than two bumps, and sub-sequently only get 1-1/2 hours runtime out of a charge.

[T-bone]

has anyone used that jetnetics HEAT total loss system?

[Big Kahuna]

junk.....

[Matt_E]

That's what I keep hearing/reading.

A big minus on the HEAT is the total lack of adjustability. You get the curve that Jetinetics thinks is best for all skis, and that's it.